Little says more about al Qaeda being a bunch of little punks obsessed with hitting the big guy (the US and the West) than their lack of adherence to their ideology.
If al Qaeda truly wanted to make the world a better place for Muslims, the US would not be the first country they would attack. Muslims live incredibly free and profitable lives in the United States. And Muslims can be seen thriving in all areas of employment and life as shopkeepers, doctors, artists, and professors.
But in China, this is not the case. Muslims are horribly oppressed by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government is officially atheist and has no problem toppling every pillar of Islam. Chinese cuisine is packed with pork, and alcohol is a popular commodity (okay, that's not really a kep point). The Chinese government indirectly supports the genocide of Muslims in Darfur (albeit by other Muslims).
The United States does not stop anyone from expressing their faith. In fact, some American Christians argue that Muslims and other religious minorities receive more religious rights than they do. At elite universities, it is accepted to practice Islam, but it is absolutely unacceptable to profess one's Christian faith. That's not the way it is in China.
Yes, I realize the anger stems from America supporting the Saudi regime, Israel, and keeping dictators like Hosni Mubarak in power in the Middle East. But the hate has become entirely irrational. The US took out Saddam Hussein, a man probably responsible for more Muslim deaths than anyone else alive. The US is working (although slowly) to distance itself from Saudi Arabia. The US is pressuring Israel (although very little) to continue with the Gaza pullout. The US is pushing for rightful democracy in Lebanon.
But now al Qaeda is working with entities that do not benefit the Muslim community; they entities that are merely against the United States. The government of Syria massacred over 20,000 Muslims (the number changes depending on who you ask) in Hama in 1982. The Assad regimes mercilessly clamped down on Sunni groups. The Syrian government is an unIslamic government run by Muslim heretics. The Syrian Baath is secularist. And yet al Qaeda and Syria are cooperating to mount attacks in Iraq.
The same goes with Iraqi Baathists. Baath ideology is counter to Islamic movements, and yet al Qaeda operatives are allying with them.
These people are not driven by ideological zeal. They are driven by blind, irrational hate of the US, and they will do anything to take the US down.
If they actually believed their faith and wanted to fight to promote it and help their brethren, China would be a much more suitable target.
Monday, August 08, 2005
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Of course they are not attacking China. They know that after the first AQ suicide bombing within the country, the Chinese authorities would start a pogrom that may well extend to military operations in the Middle East. And, unlike the West, the Chinese have no problem with bad PR -- they'd slaughter Islamist and Muslim alike, and the consequences be darned.
This story, about the razing of Mecca and Medina, also astonished me. Is this well known in the mideast? (Forgive my ignorance.) Is it viewed differently?
The destruction of Mecca: Saudi hardliners are wiping out their own heritage
By Daniel Howden
Published: 06 August 2005
Historic Mecca, the cradle of Islam, is being buried in an unprecedented onslaught by religious zealots.
Almost all of the rich and multi-layered history of the holy city is gone. The Washington-based Gulf Institute estimates that 95 per cent of millennium-old buildings have been demolished in the past two decades.
Now the actual birthplace of the Prophet Mohamed is facing the bulldozers, with the connivance of Saudi religious authorities whose hardline interpretation of Islam is compelling them to wipe out their own heritage.
It is the same oil-rich orthodoxy that pumped money into the Taliban as they prepared to detonate the Bamiyan buddhas in 2000. And the same doctrine - violently opposed to all forms of idolatry - that this week decreed that the Saudis' own king be buried in an unmarked desert grave.
A Saudi architect, Sami Angawi, who is an acknowledged specialist on the region's Islamic architecture, told The Independent that the final farewell to Mecca is imminent: "What we are witnessing are the last days of Mecca and Medina."
According to Dr Angawi - who has dedicated his life to preserving Islam's two holiest cities - as few as 20 structures are left that date back to the lifetime of the Prophet 1,400 years ago and those that remain could be bulldozed at any time. "This is the end of history in Mecca and Medina and the end of their future," said Dr Angawi.
Mecca is the most visited pilgrimage site in the world. It is home to the Grand Mosque and, along with the nearby city of Medina which houses the Prophet's tomb, receives four million people annually as they undertake the Islamic duty of the Haj and Umra pilgrimages.
The driving force behind the demolition campaign that has transformed these cities is Wahhabism. This, the austere state faith of Saudi Arabia, was imported by the al-Saud tribal chieftains when they conquered the region in the 1920s.
The motive behind the destruction is the Wahhabists' fanatical fear that places of historical and religious interest could give rise to idolatry or polytheism, the worship of multiple and potentially equal gods.
As John R. Bradley notes in his new book Saudi Arabia Exposed, the practice of idolatry in the kingdom remains, in principle at least, punishable by beheading. And Bradley also points out this same literalism mandates that advertising posters can and need to be altered. The walls of Jeddah are adorned with ads featuring people missing an eye or with a foot painted over. These "deliberate imperfections" are the most glaring sign of an orthodoxy that tolerates nothing which fosters adulation of the graven image. Nothing can, or can be seen to, interfere with a person's devotion to Allah.
"At the root of the problem is Wahhabism," says Dr Angawi. " They have a big complex about idolatry and anything that relates to the Prophet."
The Wahhabists now have the birthplace of the Prophet in their sights. The site survived redevelopment early in the reign of King Abdul al-Aziz ibn Saud 50 years ago when the architect for a library there persuaded the absolute ruler to allow him to keep the remains under the new structure. That concession is under threat after Saudi authorities approved plans to " update" the library with a new structure that would concrete over the existing foundations and their priceless remains.
Dr Angawi is the descendant of a respected merchant family in Jeddah and a leading figure in the Hijaz - a swath of the kingdom that includes the holy cities and runs from the mountains bordering Yemen in the south to the northern shores of the Red Sea and the frontier with Jordan. He established the Haj Research Centre two decades ago to preserve the rich history of Mecca and Medina. Yet it has largely been a doomed effort. He says that the bulldozers could come "at any time" and the Prophet's birthplace would be gone in a single night.
He is not alone in his concerns. The Gulf Institute, an independent news-gathering group, has publicised what it says is a fatwa, issued by the senior Saudi council of religious scholars in 1994, stating that preserving historical sites "could lead to polytheism and idolatry".
Ali al-Ahmed, the head of the organisation, formerly known as the Saudi Institute, said: "The destruction of Islamic landmarks in Hijaz is the largest in history, and worse than the desecration of the Koran."
Most of the buildings have suffered the same fate as the house of Ali-Oraid, the grandson of the Prophet, which was identified and excavated by Dr Angawi. After its discovery, King Fahd ordered that it be bulldozed before it could become a pilgrimage site.
"The bulldozer is there and they take only two hours to destroy everything. It has no sensitivity to history. It digs down to the bedrock and then the concrete is poured in," he said.
Similarly, finds by a Lebanese professor, Kamal Salibi, which indicated that once-Jewish villages in what is now Saudi Arabia might have been the location of scenes from the Bible, prompted the bulldozers to be sent in. All traces were destroyed.
This depressing pattern of excavation and demolition has led Dr Angawi and his colleagues to keep secret a number of locations in the holy cities that could date back as far as the time of Abraham.
The ruling House of Saud has been bound to Wahhabism since the religious reformer Mohamed Ibn abdul-Wahab signed a pact with Mohammed bin Saud in 1744. The combination of the al-Saud clan and Wahhab's warrior zealots became the foundation of the modern state. The House of Saud received its wealth and power and the hardline clerics got the state backing that would enable them in the decades to come to promote their Wahhabist ideology across the globe.
On the tailcoats of the religious zealots have come commercial developers keen to fill the historic void left by demolitions with lucrative high-rises.
"The man-made history of Mecca has gone and now the Mecca that God made is going as well." Says Dr Angawi. "The projects that are coming up are going to finish them historically, architecturally and environmentally," he said.
With the annual pilgrimage expected to increase five-fold to 20 million in the coming years as Saudi authorities relax entry controls, estate agencies are seeing a chance to cash in on huge demand for accommodation.
"The infrastructure at the moment cannot cope. New hotels, apartments and services are badly needed," the director of a leading Saudi estate agency told Reuters.
Despite an estimated $13bn in development cash currently washing around Mecca, Saudi sceptics dismiss the developers' argument. "The service of pilgrims is not the goal really," says Mr Ahmed. "If they were concerned for the pilgrims, they would have built a railroad between Mecca and Jeddah, and Mecca and Medina. They are removing any historical landmark that is not Saudi-Wahhabi, and using the prime location to make money," he says.
Dominating these new developments is the Jabal Omar scheme which will feature two 50-storey hotel towers and seven 35-storey apartment blocks - all within a stone's throw of the Grand Mosque.
Dr Angawi said: "Mecca should be the reflection of the multicultural Muslim world, not a concrete parking lot."
Whereas proposals for high-rise developments in Jerusalem have prompted a worldwide outcry and the Taliban's demolition of the Bamiyan buddhas was condemned by Unicef, Mecca's busy bulldozers have barely raised a whisper of protest.
"The house where the Prophet received the word of God is gone and nobody cares," says Dr Angawi. "I don't want trouble. I just want this to stop."
You're using logic. Logic, by definition, doesn't apply to people who interpret the Koran in a literal sense; just as, it is impossible to have a rational debate with those who see the bible as absolute fact. Nice try, however.
I don't think anyone should be a target of terrorism of the kind were seeing.
It's not justifiable in any way, be it China or the US.
My guess would be it's about money and the power that comes from running a well funded organization. An attack on China wouldn't raise nearly as much money as attacks on the US and Israel.
Afghanistan was a special case since the US was willing to provide over a billion dollars a year.
Of course attacking the US runs the risk of having your entire organization hunted from now to enternity, but long term planning was never the terrorist strong suite.
Tom Villars (payPal Admin for a number of Iraqi Blogs)
Hmmm.
Interesting question. However China does have it's own problems with domestic muslim terrorism, it's just not that well advertised.
Google Search URL:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=china+terrorism+muslim&spell=1
Uighurs:
http://cfrterrorism.org/groups/etim.html
Basically it's a movement oriented around the old Silk Road city of Samarkand, I think.
The real difference between China and the West is that there isn't a large population of sympathetic muslims. It's extremely difficult for non-Chinese to immigrate into China. China is extremely totalitarian, if you step out of line, you disappear.
And, while there is an anti-Republican Press in China, there isn't an anti-Chinese authority pres in China. Like the old Soviet joke:
So what's the difference between a Soviet newspaper and an American one?
Well an American one can critize the American President.
So what? My Soviet newspaper does that all the time.
Badum-bump! :)
It is time for those that accept condemnation of the societies they thrive in to throw off their pretense of shock. Lets demand that these incredibly close-knit communities take action against those that recruit and those that follow. Its simple, really. Either take a stand against the perpetrators within your community or suffer the consequences of growing suspicion and intrusion into your social networks and activites.
Last week, I wrote an alternate history short story about what would have happened if AQ had struck Beijing instead of the Twin Towers.
Within six months the Red Army has overrun the MidEast, and is bathing its feet in the Suez Canal. A perverted version of order is maintained by shooting on the spot any Arab who looks even faintly crosswise at a Chicom, or such is done if the Chicom feels bored, and just wants to shoot someone.
Eric R. Ashley
Jeff:
Barbarians with money. That's all they are. Any claim to civilization the Arab/Islamic world had evaporated half-a-millenium ago and they've been sliding downhill ever since.
The Chinese do have some problems with Muslims, just not nearly to the same extent. Its much easier to enter the U.K. or the U.S. and you can generally count on a PC response from either one. Not so with China.
The Chinese do have some problems with Muslims, just not nearly to the same extent. Its much easier to enter the U.K. or the U.S. and you can generally count on a PC response from either one. Not so with China.
Look...it's simple...it's Isaac/Jacob vs. Ishmael/Esau...been goin' on for eons and still goin' on. Always will until one is gone leaving the other. In China there is no Isaac/Jacob (Jew/Christian) ...not accepted by govt. (OK, there is some underground, but that don't count) Therefore, China is not a target of Ishmael/Esau. However, USA supports Jew and is by and large Christian, thereby making USA big target. Ishmael/Esau: meaning Arabs and Islam hate Isaac/Jacob, meaning Jews and Christians. Basically it comes down to Jehovah vs. Allah.
Real simple.
The average Moslem would much rather be American than Chinese. So we're a threat to the Islamists in a way that the Chinese aren't.
The Chinese restrict their ability to control Chinese Moslems and that's about it. With our much more attractive way of life, we undermine their authority at all levels and in all places.
If they do nothing, eventually we will destroy them. That will never be the case with the Chinese.
Not only would a Chinese response to the level of terrorism directed at the West likely be much more vigorous and less politically sensitive, but this may also be a case of terrorists seeing China as 'the enemy of my enemy.'
There may also be a more direct connection, as I'm sure Beijing is quite happy to have proxy army bleed the nation it routinely refers to as "Enemy #1". (In a similar vein, those expecting China to do something constructive about North Korea, when NK is far too useful as a thorn in America's side, will be waiting an awful long time.)
During the Cold War, the Soviets didn't experience routine assassinations of its diplomats and embassy sieges to the degree the West did because they were less likely to tolerate such shenanigans -- and gangsters masquerading as 'liberation movements' knew it.
When the wall came down we learned the extent to which the Kremlin was involved with the Western anti-war, anti-nuke and anti-American movements. Similarly, we may find that the fever-pitch anti-Americanism we've seen these past few years -- stoked by relentless demonizing and villainizing of the U.S. in elite and state-owned media around the world, and by non-stop, well-funded protest movements -- may have had some assistance.
The reason there is jihad in China is because al Qa'eda is just a proxy for those who finance the terror operations. Islamic hatred of the west is just a recruiting tool.
China does not hamper the fascists plan to dominate the middle east and beyond like the US does. Thus, China is beyon the scope of current operations.
Heck, there is a good chance that China kicks in to the AQ kitty on a regular basis. The more the US is busy with the terrorists, the better the Chinese can get on with their own little agenda of asserting power and control over Asia, especially Taiwan.
Don
enormous iNCoNgrUiTieS
"Bringing the Jihad to China", three words: they don't dare.
PA: "Of course attacking the US runs the risk of having your entire organization hunted from now to eternity." Attacking the Chinese would certainly have your entire family, clan and tribe hunted from now to eternity. In the old days, if you were found treasonous, such as said anything against the Emperor, the Son of Heaven, you would have yourself, your family, your relatives, your friends, your community, and anyone remotely connected to you upto "nine tribes" would be slaughtered. For the Chinese, to kill you and razed your family is an enlightened act, a concession to the West. So, they don't dare.
Someone said that no-one deserves AQ barbarism. Communist China is a regime founded on one of the more reprehensible insurgencies seen, and their human rights record since has been responsible for far more deaths than any terror organization. Not to mention their potential for havoc.
Fight fire with fire.
i see it differently, i guess, in that i don't think rational considerations are at work here. i think the hatred against the united states is directly generated by "the woman question," which has two related components when viewed by jihadis.
the first part is their reaction to sexual images of young women, which excite and provoke, whether in victoria's secret ads or mtv's the real world or good old baywatch with boobjob babes running in slow motion down the beach.
the second part is (thanks to feminism) women in positions of power, from college professors to condoleeza rice.
the jihadi wants to annihilate both of these females, though perhaps not without raping them first. under the burkha the woman in bondage wears sexy lingerie: there was a documentary about this phenomenon on the sundance channel only last week. 30,000 men filled a stadium in taliban-ruled afghanistan to watch women being whipped, in a scene right out of the marquis de sade. how many of the men masturbated then or later on as a result?
the islamist then comes to despise and fear and hate western (particularly american) males as individually weak but collectively all-powerful only because of the technology the jihadi imagines the western male received in a deal with the devil in a searing injustice only ultraviolence can wipe out by reducing the western male to trembling fear -- making him a woman as fearful as the jihadi's terrorized wife.
Stephen Schwartz wrote a book on this, The Two Faces of Islam. Schwartz himself is a convert to Sufi Islam. His book documents the Saudis' use of oil money to promote Wahhabism and take over the rest of Islam. They offered to build mosques in the Balkans, but were rejected because part of the deal was to destroy gravestones in Muslim cemeteries.
If I were a Muslim interested in the history of my culture, I'd be very afraid of the Saudis.
As for a terrorist attack on China, all you have to remember is one word. Hama.
That was the name of a town in Syria which was home to a movement to establish an Islamist revolt, before Assad leveled it. China would do something similar.
Meanwhile, the U.S. is more worried about racial profiling than another terrorist attack.
I wonder what it would take to get groups like CAIR to actually aid us in eliminating terrorist cells here.
china aided aq khan. maybe they are backing al qaeda?
MAYBE THEY FEEL IT IS HOW THEY CAN TIE THE USA DOWN UNTIL TNEY CAN GET STRONMG ENOPUGH FORE AN INVASION OF TAIWAN, AND THEN TAKE OVER THE PACIFIC. EN ROUTE TO RULING THE WORLD?
Re: Fight fire with fire
Nobody deserves to be a victim of terrorism. Terrorism attacks civilians, murders indiscriminately. Mao was a mass-murderer and the Chinese people were his victims. Any terrorism against the country that Mao victimized would just make victims of more Chinese.
Same for Iran, Syria, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, etc. Serious or semi-serious comments about nuking these enemies, or using terrorism against them are only calls for killing innocent people who are already the victims of horrible regimes.
Should we have unleashed terrorism or other dirty methods on East Germany, Russia, and other enemies of the Cold War? The countries of "New Europe" are now among our strongest allies because we were friends of the people of these countries while enemies of their governments.
The people of these countries are not our enemies; the governments are our enemies, and are the enemies of their own people. Their people suffer more from their governments than we do.
At elite universities [in the US], ... it is absolutely unacceptable to profess one's Christian faith.
That's an exaggeration. Christianity is out of favor at elite US universities, publically practicing Christians may feel some hostility, but "absolutely unacceptable" is an exaggeration. It's not that bad yet, and probably won't be any time soon.
...but I would agree that Islam is certainly more favored at elite US universities, just because it's fashionable for our so-called "intellectuals" (not engineers or scientists, just the useless artsy types) to favor anybody who hates the US. Or anybody who they think hates the US.
Actually, Uighurs from China were in Afghanistan and fighting for Al Qaeda.
Since China does not have a free press, some terrorist activities in China may have gone unreported.
Likewise, terrorists have a harder time to exist in places like China where the government can clamp down with extreme force.
See Suharto's Indonesia vs. today's Indonesia.
I wonder the same thing a few weeks back, and it ain't just Sudanese Muslims that China "victimizes".
They have their own:
Bin Laden and Saddam (and China)
I think there is a fundamental flaw in your argument. The Chinese government does not discourage the practice of any major religion, it discourages mass gatherings. A truly religious person does not need to advertise his/her faith but has to keep the faith. Moreover don't assume the violence of any kind will be tolerated for a long time. The only reason people tolerate this radical strain of Islam they understand that a few stupid people have been acting up but patience has been running very thin. Hope we can resolve this issue before it becomes a full fledged conflict.
I think there is a fundamental flaw in your argument. The Chinese government does not discourage the practice of any major religion, it discourages mass gatherings. A truly religious person does not need to advertise his/her faith but has to keep the faith. Moreover don't assume the violence of any kind will be tolerated for a long time. The only reason people tolerate this radical strain of Islam they understand that a few stupid people have been acting up but patience has been running very thin. Hope we can resolve this issue before it becomes a full fledged conflict.
They're coming for the money!
And, they're no different than the Nazi's. CAROL HERMAN
LP,
Al Qaida is a terrorist organization that is interested in the media spotlight that is attracted by their terrorist operations .
You cannot talk about AQ without talking about the corrupt KSA and its contribution to the birth and financing of the organization even today. I know it is not fashionable for Lebanese to criticize our new wealthy benefactors ,the Saudis, and their Lebanese agents.
Wherever the Saudis go they must spread their brand of Islam with their money and Lebanon will not be any different.
BTW the People's Repubic of China is hostile to all relgious groups , Muslims, Tibetian Buddhists, Fulan Gong, Taoists Etc.
Saddam was a murderous dictator but the western powers have also been responsible for murder and mayhem in Iraq . The illustrious Sir Winston Churchill was responsilble for the Mustard gassing of 120,000 Iraqis in the 1920's in Iraq and George Bush has killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians and we are still counting. AQ is just capitalizing on the unpopular occupations that are ongoing in the ME. The West continues to blunder in Iraq and will soon hand the country to the Ayotallahs and the Wahabis to duke it out
THe Syrian dictatorship is according to the FBI cooperating with them fully on AQ. They even send suspects to syria for torture and "rendition". The Americans count them as one of their allies in their war on terror.The Syrian Alawite dominated regime is a regime that is hostile to Sunni Wahabism and fears the resurgence of the MB because it is the only group in the opposition that has a popular following.
The link between AQ and Saddam has already been discredited by many people even within the US gov't. It is strange that you try to use this lie to make your arguement. I suppose next you will try to tell us that there is WMD in Iraq or they were hidden in Syria.
I can agree with you that Muslims have more freedom in the US than in its ME colonies.That is why everyone seeks to immigrate to the US.
It is not only AQ which is driven by blind irrational hate.
Issam
Sand Chiggers
Can you say
THERMO-NUCLEAR WAR-FARE?
- Slim Pickens
[q]Muslims live incredibly free and profitable lives in the United States. And Muslims can be seen thriving in all areas of employment and life as shopkeepers, doctors, artists, and professors.[/q]
Seems to me that this is fairly strong evidence that fostering free and prosperous Muslims is not the al -Q goal.
Imagine the Muslim apologists going on TV screaming about Chinese civil rights violations. I laughed my butt off thinking about it.
The Chinese wouldn't put up with their nonsense for one second, and the jihadists know it. Remember when the Russians gassed those terrorists, killing innocents too? Times that by 1000, and that's what you'll have if the jihadists attack China. Frankly, sometimes I wish they would so China would do the deed.
Read Paul Berman's Terror and Liberalism. I can't do his book justice, especially in this small a space, but the crux of it is that Islamists fear liberalism -- by which I mean classical liberalism, the foundation of modern Western society. It is contrary to their vision of Islam. In that sense, it's like Communism, which the Islamists also hate. But unlike Communism, liberalism is a threat to Islam itself. If Muslims are martyred by Communist governments, that's OK; they die gloriously in service to Allah, good Muslims to the end. The Islamists have no problem with martyrdom. But if Muslims are corrupted by liberalism, they cease to be true Muslims -- and that's the most terrible thing imaginable.
A quote from Berman, commenting on the writings of Sayyid Qutb (according to Berman, one of the most influential Islamist scholars/philosophers/theologians), helps make the point:
"Liberalism wanted to carve up life into different slices and keep each of these slices in its proper spot . . . That was exactly what Qutb could not abide. He understood very clearly how religion is treated in liberal societies. In Milestones, he described the kind of social system in which, unlike in Communist society, 'God's existence is not denied, but His domain is restricted to the heavens and His rule on earth is suspended.' . . . In that kind of social system, 'people are permitted to go to mosques, churches and synagogues.' It was remarkable that he listed mosques first. He was not looking to make cheap shots against the liberal countries -- was not trying to shine a spotlight on liberal hypocrisies, on the grandiose boasts of supreme tolerance that liberal societies sometimes make, and fail to fulfill. He took liberal society at iits best -- a society in which Muslims would, in fact, enjoy the same religious freedom as everyone else. But liberalism at its best held no appeal, to him. A liberal society restricts God's domain to the heavens. And by doing so, 'such a society denies or suspends God's sovereignty on earth.'"
To the Islamist, a Muslim who accepts liberal tenets is only partially Muslim -- and there's no such thing as a partial Muslim. The Islamists fear and hate liberalism in a way they don't fear and hate Communism because liberalism appeals to people, and it has the potential to destroy Islam as they understand it.
The Communists are merely a physical threat. We're much more insidious, because we're a theological threat. Communism can destroy Muslim bodies; liberalism threatens to destroy Islam itself. (The Islamist vision of Islam, that is.) Or at least that's what I think Berman would say.
china can't even scratch its own ass..let alone lead or plan any military campaign.
If the US can't control Iraq...you think the Chinese could?
Albert
Why would Muslim extremists think it's a GOOD thing for Muslims in the West to be free and prosperous (and Westernized)?
America is a bigger threat to Islam than China. Why would they care about the lives of Muslims? People are born and die every day (according to Allah's will, supposedly). What matters to them is Islam, not Muslims.
How is Al-Q supposed to conduct terror in China, anyway? Do you think they can just plot in a Berlin hideaway and suddenly fly into Beijing and blow things up? No, China is too controlled to permit even the usual Al-Q scouting expeditions.
Maybe the Islamofascists believe that China will stay in its shell, even if Al-Q takes over all of Central Asia. They forget, or ignore, what happened to Eastern Turcostan and Tibet: China colonizes by quiet preparation, then suddenly taking over the intended target en masse. Today the Tibetans are probably a minority in their own country.
whoever said Ishmael/Esau: meaning Arabs and Islam hate Isaac/Jacob, meaning Jews and Christians.
Islamic Faith means that you have faith in God, His angels, His books, His MESSENGERS, and the Last Day, and that you have faith in the measuring out, both its good and its evil.
SO ISLAM DOESN'T HATE ISAAC OR JACOB.
A year after 9/11 I went on a visit to Hong Kong and made a trip to mainland China in GuangZhou. Before entering this Special Economic Zone we obviously had to pass through a checkpoint and present our passports. I noted an area off to the side where they would pull people for a more extensive check. Of the 2 dozen or so individuals waiting in that area, every single one of them was a male of Middle Eastern descent. The men also didn't seem to be terribly upset by it either...they had more of a resigned look on their faces.
Anyway, I know it's an anecdotal report, but ever since then I've imagined how China might react to a serious external threat of terrorism...it wouldn't be pretty that's for sure.
I think many of the factors mentioned here relate to the lower incidence of jihad in china. The stronger response, lack of free press and tightly controlled immigration coupled with totalitarian control make any sort of current campaign against china fairly useless. There is no hope of successfully advancing the muslim cause because of these things.
One other thing that hasn't been mentioned however, is that much of islamic terrorism against israel and the west was fostered by the communsist USSR. A huge campaign of propaganda and collaboration was undertaken in the 70's by the Soviets as outed by Former Soviet Spy Chief Ion Mihai Pacepa. Much of the propaganda centered around linking the west and specifically the USA with Israel, which is something that China cannot be linked with as far as I am aware.
Links to supporting articles here
Read this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4131916.stm
Bomb explodes on S China bus Monday, 8 August, 2005, 13:42 GMT 14:42 UK
A man has detonated a home-made bomb on a bus in the Chinese city of Fuzhou, killing himself and injuring at least 31 others, state media has reported.
The bomber was a 42-year-old farmer suffering from terminal lung cancer, Xinhua news agency said.
(...)
There were more than a thousand reported bombings last year.
Most go unreported by the country's tightly-controlled state media.
Chris, one of the USSR's biggest defeats was Afghanistan, where they were taken down by a Jihad... We haven't abstained from such tactics in the past and such tactics served us well, atleast in the short term. Better they fight eachother than us.
Matt, Communism was ideologically challenged by liberalism, atleast the brand the USSR was pressing. There are, & have been (since 1900...), more peaceful (no-revolution, democratic) forms of communism that still exist and argue good cases in many countries.
Unfortunately the firey, dictator-type commandeered (and forever stained) the brand with Russia's revolution.
Let's not let that happen with Islam & the oil-states.
oh, you go really low. shame on you
You lebanese man who wrote this.
Not very current on the news, ha?
Al Qaeda doesnt care about Muslims but about Islam as a whole. Their interpretation of Islam that is. Otherwise they wouldn't be blowing up innocent Muslims in Iraq EVERY DAY!!
Re: supporting jihadis in Afghanistan 20 years ago
My point was that we should not support terrorism in countries whose governments are our enemies. The fact that we supported the enemy of our enemy in Afghanistan during the 80's has no bearing on my argument. (BTW, we helped kill Soviet soldiers in Afghanistan, not Soviet citizens in non-combat zones.)
Even if we had engaged in terrorism against Soviet civilians during that conflict, it doesn't invalidate my point that intentionally killing civilians suffering under an enemy regime is morally wrong, and bad strategy if we want the support of the populace if/when we accomplish regime change.
How about looking a t the whole picture? Islamic terorirsm isn't founded only on mere religious reasons. There´s also politic and history involved. It seems pretty obvious there hasn't been any Chinese presence on the Middle East its inhabitants can relate to as an interference unlike Western one.
I don't remember China colonizing the Middle East, interfering with local politics, having bases or corporations in the region. This of course is no justification for terrorism, and the way muslims interpret and react to this facts is higly influenced by their culture.
It is however very clear beacuase of the above why fundamentalists don't look at China as a thread the way they do with the US or some European countries
Here is an interesting link to an article about how Jihadists may be inadvertently helping China:
www.deconislam.blogspot.com
Subject: Request for help
Dear Sir or Madam,
I am a Japanese non-fiction writer, mainly writing for Japanese magazines,
now living in Taiwan, and am interested in Lebanese history and politics.
It was very interesting for me to read your article titled "Bringing the
Jihad to China".
Very glad to inform you that I will be in Lebanon mid-September,
and would like to understand Lebanese situation.
In Japan, there is misunderstanding on the Middle East, unfortunately, but
I will introduce your opinion to the Japanese magazines or my blog in
Japanese
I wonder if you could meet me and tell me your opinion.
E-mail: mujinatw@goo.ne.jp
blog: http://blog.goo.ne.jp/mujinatw
Your post is thought provoking. It can be inflammatory. If you are sugggesting a Jihad in China. This will create unnecessary wars and alliances in excerbating the middle east situation. You might force Russia and the Central Asian republics closer together.
Don't you ever forget there are corrupted and oppressive governments in you need to do something about in, Egypt, Sudan, Turkey (oppressing Kurdish people), Kazahstan, Ubekistan and Kryjjistan...etc. The biggest of them all is Russia, Chenchya.
The Americans are in your way, that is why, you and others want to get rid of America and get to the real people.
To bring about better treatment to all muslim is to go to the UN and struggle for peace and human rights like what Ghandi did last century. That is the only way you can create the environment for diplomatic negotiations.
I might be wading into this late but China is like the school bully while USA is a trained special forces soldier. There is no comparison. Despite what China has done to the Uighurs it has no soldiers nor corps in the middle east hence the arabs and AQ hasnt jihaded it.
Muhammad, the prophet, asked his followers to study from China, not to bomb China.
btw, it is ridiculous to see so many people here said that the Chicom killed so many people without being able to produce any proofs whatsoever. Sure, there were deaths, but probably not as many as deaths caused by American "interventions."
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