We have no sympathy for Israel's position right now. None.
We have sympathy for the Israeli civilians being hit by Hezbollah bombs, but there is no justification for Israel's action. It's abusive. The United States did not hit civilians or civilian escape routes out of the country like this when invading either Afghanistan or Iraq.
Israel made its statement. We cannot tolerate any more. We understood what they were doing. We understood why they needed to do it. But now, there is no sympathy left. Hezbollah is not a mortal danger to you. It has the potential to be, but we Lebanese have been trying to change that internally, through UN resolutions and peacefully.
The bombing has gone on for too long. It's too fierce. Hezbollah has lost morale. The Shia have lost morale. The Lebanese have lost their country.
This is a fight Israel cannot win. Everyone in Lebanon knows that Hezbollah cannot win, including Hezbollah. There is nothing Israel can do to get the soldiers back through force. But this isn't about soldiers or Israeli defense any more.
You've made this country unliveable for the people fighting to disarm Hezbollah.
Guess what? I'm leaving. Yep. Me.
Where am I going? Syria. Didn't want to, but I have to. The people we marched against are the ones you sent us begging to. The people who assassinated our leaders, kept us from having an operating democracy, and who armed Hezbollah are laughing it up because they've won the game because of you.
Bashar Assad said Lebanon would be destroyed if he left. I didn't know the Israelis would play into his game. It's not surprising that Syrian-allied Hezbollah started the mess, but you guys are just vicious.
All my Hezbollah supporting friends are sticking around. They call the rest of us cowards. I guess we are. We want to do scientific research. We want our children to learn how to play the piano. We want to watch our stock porfolios burgeon. We can't do that here any more.
I tried to sympathize with you. I didn't support Hezbollah, and if you look at the posts before this conflict began, I was maligning the political parties that oppose Hezbollah for not doing enough.
I even gave you guys the benefit of the doubt at the beginning of this, as did most Lebanese. Even the Shia, Christians, and Druze in South Lebanon understood your position. Not any more.
Oh, well. I'm a refugee.
Saturday, July 15, 2006
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73 comments:
LP, you have taken the words right out of my mouth (and my next post...available tonight).
Please be safe.
I had given the Israelis the benefit of the doubt. Now, I have nothing but hate.
War is hell. Good luck to you.
Why do all Arabs externalize? Bashar's game... Israel's fault. I didn't note anything in your missive about you including Hezbollah in your government and there not being one official word against their aggression. You guys didn't complete your civil war... You called a cease fire and hoped for the best, but I guess Hezbollah dissappointed. Like the Americans are learning in Iraq, if you don't do the job right it will haunt you forever.
So sad all this suffering. Be safe.
You have friends that are Hezbollah?!?! That would be like me having Al Quaeda friends? Isn't it your responsiblity to kill/imprison such people? You are making serious mistakes of judgement.
You remind me of the Taliban. "Al Quaeda is our guests and we will not give them up." Well, they got what they deserved.
You are either with us or or with the terrorists.
"You are either with us or or with the terrorists."
who are "you"?
and who are the terrorists?
the murderers of Qana are terrorists.
the murderers of the mansourah ambulance are terrorists..
the murderers of the bus of rawhamin are terrorists...
the murderers of the family of dweir are terrorists..
so perhaps, i should not be on the isreali side. tell me which side to stick to?
LP, my heart was heavy when I read your post - stay safe.
(And may parents hear their children play the piano in the Lebanon before long. Your beloved country has suffered for too long, and to "have the clock turned back" is bitter indeed.)
Kind regards.
"I didn't support Hezbollah"
Yes, you did. You didn't oppose them, you even have friends who openly support them; therefore, you supported them. And now you see what happens.
Maybe the only Arabs with any balls are the crazy religious gun-toting kind?
lebop,
I hope you stay safe. I have read your posts with great interest via Michael Totten.
I doubt this is any comfort to you, but my take is that the global struggle is heating everywhere and it is likely that the ugly stasis that has been perpetuated in the ME for 40+ years will be broken loose in a true war that will end with real peace. The problem, as I see it is, you may be jumping from the frying pan to the fire by going to Syria.
I am not being bombed, so I won't make a judgement on your perspective. However, consider that Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah, and others have preached and practiced the destruction of Israel for decades. If my home of Michigan was Israel, and we were perpetually under suicide and rocket attack by the masked thugs I see in pictures, we would have gone medieval on our attackers long ago.
Maybe Hezbollah will go down as a result of this and you can rebuild your country for real. As it was, there was no progress being made in resolving the situation that I could see.
First of all, my simpathies to you and your situation.
But I really disagree on your view of the situation right now.
You were fighting Hezbollah. Yeah, right. You did a hell of a good job. Such a great job, in fact, that Israel has had to sacrifice its own youths to clean the mess for you.
The Americans didn't do all this mess in Iraq, granted. But Americans have lots of more equipment and manpower and can afford that. Israel isn't such a great world power, so it has to do it this way. After all, killing the enemy's infrastructures is the first thing to do in every war manual since the war appeared in the world. Killing the enemy's morale is the second as well. I think Israel is doing a hell of a good job in that. Feel proud of being a first class observer of what real 1st class warfare is.
BTW, if you go to Syria, you might be in the move again in a few days... Syria is next when we finish with the terrorists in Lebanon.
All the best,
although i cant imagine any good scenario out of this mess. unless somehow Olmert becomes a peace-pigeon, and Bashar becomes a dmocracy-pigeon overnight.
its fucked. I can only hope for the best for ur country. and for mine. :(
Commenters (I'd address you by name, but you're all anonymous),
We're not externalizing anything. Syria controlled this country until last year, and now controls about a third of the country. They're also much, much more powerful than the 2/3rds who have the rest of the control of this country.
Syria is a factor.
Many good people support Hezbollah. In fact, one of my friends who strongly supports the Party of God has a Jewish boyfriend in Europe. She's no anti-semite. She doesn't call for the destruction of Israel. It's a lot more complex than that.
To grasp why this is, you must understand sectarian identity in Lebanon. The al Qaeda/Taliban example is not apt.
Many of the comments here are dead on.
the lebanese are now paying the price for ignoring the gathering threat of hezbullah.
As I recall the Israeli government asked the Lebanese government to position it's army along the border as a means of easing the tension.
One of your great parliamentarians stated that lebanon was not in the business of providing security for Israel.
That, dear sir, is arrogance. You lebanese had a duty to your neighbor. but rather than do it, you focused on your stock portfolios and your piano lessons.
Now you want us to sympathize? why? We in the west have been bombed and threatened and bombed and threatened for long enough now.
So run to syria.
One of the huge benefits of our involvement in Iraq is that we have gotten a good long glimpse at this culture. And it's ugly.
Many have tried to apologize for the ghastly behavior of the terrorists by claiming that only a fraction of the faithful are killers.
Well fine, but the other 99% did what you lebanese did: NOTHING. Your refusal to confront these people is tantamount to a tacit acceptance of their agenda.
And what of the people that hamas and hezbullah want out of prison? At least one is a well know mass murderer who killed a father while the daughter watched then dashed out the daughter's brains with his rifle butt.
Yet israel is supposed to give people like this back? And you're OK with that?
No sir, the muslim world will never have peace until they grow the balls it takes to confront the evil doers their faith has spawned.
Honestly, is self delusion a pan demic in the middle east or what?
BE safe, but I agree, Syria is next - and unlike Lebanon, where though screwed up, there is an understanding of trynig to get out from under Syria's yoke - in Syria there is no such political movement. Israel will not try to differentiate their targets as they have tried in Lebanon. Get to a non-Hezbollah spot and you will be safer.
I'm sorry this is happening to you. But if your "not supporting" Hezbollah doesn't bring quiet to Israel's border then it's useless to it. And even if 99% of Lebanese feel like you and still can't do anything after so many years then you are all useless so I don't see why Israel should care that you oppose Hezbollah.
I have to agree -- don't go to Syria, I expect the bombs to be falling on Damascus in a few days.
Head for Turkey. It's in NATO -- you know, the civilized alliance that actually stands for something, unlike the Arab League.
Go to Turkey.
Complexity is something for the lebanese to hide behind IMHO.
It boils down to this: right and wrong. What Hizbullah did was WRONG. Smokescreens about sectarian consideration notwithstanding.
I'm not buying it for a second. had your government simply demanded that your army put down its cigarettes and pick up it weapons none of this would have happened.
The Israels asked you to patrol the border and you refused. Now you are trying to cover your lack of will behind a veil of nuance.
Sorry, try selling nuance in damascus we're all stocked up here in America.
When will you people realize that we've had enough of your games? Prior to 9/11 Americans might have bought the middle eastern nonsense but not now. Too much evil has been done in the name of your God. Islam is clearly a threat to civilization.
And all you guys do is wring your hands. Why is it that the Americans and Israelis can summon the courage to confront the evil within Islam and you can't? Because it would adversly impact your stock portfolio?
The civilized world suffers one outrage after another in the name of YOUR god and you do nothing.
It's time for the arabs to take a long hard look at themselves. If the killings and the bombings and the riots and threats aren't the picture of Islam you'd like the world to see then you better do something to change that.
And if you do nothing, which is your track record thus far, you should expect us to assume that this is indeed what Islam is and you're part of the problem.
The muslims started a war with us and war is a very polarizing thing. We have a saying in America: you're either part of the solution, or you're part of the problem.
Look at you: radical islamic psychopaths control your country and your faith. Your response to that is a backhanded plea for sympathy and a trip to syria. Now that's courage right?
"It's a lot more complex than that."
I have no doubt. But it's become much simpler in the past few days, hasn't it?
Israel is going to vaporize Hezbollah, and like most Americans, I can't blame them. Can you? If your homeland was at the mercy of a pack of genocidal freaks, would you sit on your hands for YEARS doing nothing?
So, the situation is much clearer now. You can back Hezbollah, and ensure your country's destruction, or you can fight it, and, hopefully, get your country back -- for real this time.
As complex as things WERE, they're not anymore.
I am sorry for your loses, but now is the time to choose: try to join with modern (though not perfect) arab nations like Egypt and Jordan or join Syria and Iran. There is no middle ground and you don't have time to endlessly talk and discuss it. Hizbolla has forced our hand. Civilians are being hit and killed all over the northern part of Israel and we know many of our soldiers will die, yet we summon the courage to fight militant, 7th century style Islam and so should you. Fight against the Hezbollah with Israel or flee your homes and pay the price. Any-one who is harboring a serial-killer in his house can't plead ignorance when the cops come (It's true that there will be many more casaulties but this is war and not a police action).
"""Hezbollah is not a mortal danger to you. It has the potential to be, but we Lebanese have been trying to change that internally, through UN resolutions and peacefully."""
BIG MISTAKE ,GOING TO DAMASCUS
Your delusion is strong.Lebanon did nothing to stop hezbollah in South Lebanon ,NOTHING but talk.
Israel ,thank God has decided not to tolerate this evil islamic impunity by restrain and talks and appeasment.
Im a Christian who thanks God Israel is sending moslem's to hell where they belong.
The only thing hamas and hezbollah and Iran and Syria understand is brute force.
It starts with Lebanon and ends with WWIII and the beginning of great global destruction written of in the book of Revelation .
The world will never be the same ,ever again.
skipsailing - these same islamist, fanatics, militants, that are threatening civilazations put their hands in your governments hands years ago and some of them still do.
by association I suppose the bullshit the US propegates as well as Israel is just as threatening to civilization and are terrorists as well.
And no prior to 9/11 u probably had no clue what was going on in the Middle East.
for 52 years before 9/11, Israel funded by billions of dollars of support from the american government and weapons made in the US have targeted a people based on a 2000 year old claim to the land.
You call it terrorims we call it resistance.
Hezb allah or any other group .. at this point of time would have been a terrorist group to Israel no matter their claim to legitimacy.
My sympathies go out for you, LP, and all there in Lebanon that yearn for a free and sovereign Lebanon.
You understand begging then...here is my plea to you...
Now is as good a time as ever to let the courage of your convictions not fail you. Your hizbollah supporter friends are right and if you go you will never realize your dream. Period.
Why are you leaving to ... Syria!!? What guarantee of your safety is assured to you after everything all you just lamented about that regime?
Stay in your country, for god sake. Lebanon is not getting carpet bombed. Lebanon is not getting destroyed. Hizbollah is. Stay! Hunker down with your brothers and sisters in the fight against the true threat and agressors there in the country you so dearly love (those deadly, militant puppets in your own country, Syria and Iran - Not Israel.). Hold out! protect each other, help each other through this historic moment.
If you go to Syria, of all places, you will look back with regret and shame. If you hold out, your dreams will be realized sooner rather than later.
Anon 6:58,
You're a jerk. You have no idea what Lebanese who oppose Syria and Hezbollah have been through. You couldn't last a minute amidst the beating, water cannons, assassinations, bombs in your neighborhood.
LP is honest. He's giving the real picture, and he's not making crap up. You love him when he's with you, but now that he continues to speak the truth, you're calling him cowardly, stupid, and someone who aides and abetts terror. You people deserve no respect.
So, when will Israel have gone too far in Lebanon? It seems you're saying a nuclear devise would be acceptable to get rid of Hezbollah, and that the Lebanese deserve it for living in the same country as they do, even though they have been put into their power by Syria and Iran and have been oppressing the Lebanese.
LP, my only sorrow for you is that you're now finding out that you have no friends and are never right. That's what it looks like from the middle. Let the others kill themselves.
"They call the rest of us cowards. I guess we are. We want to do scientific research. We want our children to learn how to play the piano. We want to watch our stock porfolios burgeon. We can't do that here any more."
There is a cost for such things. You have to fight for them. And since you didn't they're gone.
I am astonished to read so many malicious posts directed at ONE person leaving his homeland. I read lines like "Israel is going to vaporize Hezbollah, and like most Americans, I can't blame them." with sorrow. I was brought up in Northern Ireland where terrorists - many of them funded by Americans - blew up civilians, including members of my family. Those deaths are still remembered. Each person matters. The person whose blog you are staining is also a civilian and probably recoils with as much horror as I at the use of words like 'vaporize'. Have you no shame?
I understand your bitterness about all of this, but you must also understand that it wasn't Israel's intention to simply 'send a message'. She has done that on multiple occasions in the past. The UN accept a resolution that called on the Lebanese government to disarm Hezbollah. If the Lebanese government felt like she wasn't able to do so on her own, she could have asked for international support and she would have received it.
It is terrible, in any way, that civilians who are directly involved in the aggression and violence of Hezbollah suffer because of it. But, it's up to you and up to the rest of those civilians to do something against Hezbollah. With democracy comes responsibility. A "we tried so hard" isn't suffice anymore. If you need help, you will receive it. The problem is you didn't do enough, nor did you ask for that help.
About people supporting Hezbollah due to the structure of society in the Middle-East: that is not an excuse either. One must follow the path of tradition only when it is useful and morally right to do so. Once it's clear that tradition has been wrong, one must find the courage to abandon this tradition.
The good news is that although it may appear different right now, all is not lost. You and your fellow citizens still have the time and the opportunity to do something about Hezbollah. Israel is not out to destroy Lebanon at all. If that was her wish, you would have already seen Israeli forces walking on the streets of Beirut.
Furthermore: Hezbollah is a threat to Israel. Hezbollah is being backed up by Iran. There are even Iranian forces assisting Iran in Southern Lebanon. Where is your government? Where are your troops? Where is the public outrage about that?
Correction I of course meant to say:
- civilians who are not involved in Hezbollah's aggression
You're fleeing to Syria -- what you say is the real villian -- to avoid fighting Hezbollah in Lebanon?
I think you're pointing at the problem here. The Lebanese have played the game that protests and "UN resolutions" were the way to put down Hezbollah.
Next time you've got a rabid dog in your back yard, consider that the way to render him harmless to your neighbor is something a little more to the point than a protest or a UN resolution.
Have a good time in Damascus; it'll probably be a good fifty, maybe sixty hours until the IAF is bombing there...
... as you imply that they should.
I don't understand the confusion here, or the vitriol, although I'm not sure how much asylum you'll rightfully find in Syria since it appears Israel's about to bomb them, too (they issued an ultimatum demanding Syria secure the release of the two Israeli prisoners...fat chance, since Syria has no power over that situation).
I wish you peace and safety and all the best, but I'm afraid you're really between a rock and a hard place with this one. May your ultimate choice be the right one.
Bravo Hizbollah. Job done. Your plan worked a treat. You've polarised people like LP and perpetual refugee, brought them over to your side in a war that they never would have supported a week ago. You've shut down any discussion about your role in future.
The tourists are gone and the infrastructure is kaput. Who cares though, eh? Not the kind of Beirut you wanted in the first place. And if other people have to make sacrifices for you, all for the greater good.
Bravo Israel. You've collectively punished a population, much of which was against Hizbollah. You've strengthened them and given them prestige in the Arab world that they didn't have before.
And bravo Iran and Syria. You've managed to wage a proxy war against the "Zionist entity" without getting your hands dirty
For all you geography deficient commenters (probably the Americans),
LP isn't running into Syrian arms because he wants to. Look at a map. Israel blew up the ports and has a sea blockade. The worst of the war is going on between Hezbollah and Syria in the south. You can't cross the border there, either, because they will both shoot you.
Also, it's not Hezbollah that's pissed off LP and Perpetual Refugee. They understood the aggression at first. Now, it's ridiculous. The Israelis completely destroyed Lebanon's infrastructure. Even if Hezbollah is completely destroyed, how will they survive afterward with billions and billions of repairs to make. They already have some of the greatest debt in the world.
Your words are very important to the future struggle of "the Cedar Revolution"
remember the saying;
"It is darkest before dawn."
keep yourself alive.
"Where am I going? Syria. Didn't want to, but I have to. The people we marched against are the ones you sent us begging to. The people who assassinated our leaders, kept us from having an operating democracy, and who armed Hezbollah are laughing it up because they've won the game because of you.
Bashar Assad said Lebanon would be destroyed if he left. I didn't know the Israelis would play into his game. It's not surprising that Syrian-allied Hezbollah started the mess, but you guys are just vicious."
Who is it you are blaming in your fate? Shouldn't you take responsibility for your future? Over three years to stop the constant attacks of the Hizbollah on Israel and take responsibility for your borders and what is hapenning within them.. I would say Israel was quite patient.
Maybe Lebanon should have done something in the three years to stop Hizbollah from constantly attacking it and controlling the southern border?
If Syria won the game, maybe it's because of Lebanese apathy and lack of care for what is going on with Israel?
Israelis play their own "game". Their game is to take actions against those who are attacking it. To strike those who are weakening it. To get their people back after they are kidnapped and noone cares. To secure its borders.
However, that is after years or asking the Lebanese to control their border and disarm the Hizbollah. After years that the UN told Lebanon to get their act together. After years that the world has told Lebanon to disarm terrorists organization working freely from your country and sitting in your government.
If you are not strong enough to simply get your own people (I assume Hizbollah are your people since they sit in your government) to stop attacking Israel, who is to blame here?
Again, I know it is not easy to hear, and certainly not easy to do what the world expects of you. But saying that Israel pushes you to Syria? And why are you going to Syria? It is likely that the war will spread to Syria. Stay in parts of Lebanon that have no Hizbollah presence. Or you think IDF is targetting you?
It's not surprising that you "lose" the empathy you started with towards Israel. It's easy to care about Israel when it is the victim who doesn't strike back. Unfortunately, Israelis can not play that "game".
Of course Israel strikes back phyically and emotionally harder than it is being hit. A war is not about playing fair. But I think Israel is not targetting you. And I think Israel is being proportionate in its response. Not equal.. but you do not yet see the mass destruction of Beirut like in the previous Lebanon war. And I hope we wont.
I hope that Lebanese find strength to take arms against Hizbollah within before giving up their country. And while Israel strikes Hizbollah, maybe it's good time to try. Hizbollah started something that brought a black chapter to Lebanon, and Lebanese must hold them accountable. If you choose to blame Israel for reacting you will gain nothing. If you get rid of Hizbollah and push out Iran and Syria, you will gain a lot - you will gain your future and the glory you deserve. Lebanon once was glorious. It can be glorious again.. All it needs is to get rid of the sickness from within.
An vexed Israeli.
Ron, You'd be better off reading your history. Why are you mentioning three years? Why did Hezbollah have three years? Don't get that number. Maybe you're talking about the year Lebanon's been out of Syria's grasp, or the six years since Israel pulled out.
Also, Hezbollah's attacks against Israel are infrequent. Ask the IDF. Has Hezbollah ever done to you what you are doing to Lebanon?
So, you're telling me that you're sitting cozy in Israel with all the water, food, guns, nuclear weapons, and welfare that Israel can offer and you're beating up a guy fleeing for his fucking life! You're a true asshole. I'd say, "Fuck the Jews," if I didn't know kind Israelis who understand the plight of other human beings.
'You are either with us or with the terrorists'
you need the most stupid line of
the most stupid president of the USA to comment.
I am not with you or the terrorists. The world is not as black and white as mr. Bush want's us to believe (he's also as warsick as Olmert is).
A message from 'Old' Europe, someone ho wants people to live in peace, but that's very old-fashioned nowadays I am affraid.
When will you people over there come to you're senses !!!!!!!!!!
LP, my thoughts go to you and I pray to the safety of your people and country. Whether you stay or leave is your call and either way it shouldn’t detract from your convictions and struggle for a better future to Lebanon and other countries. You can fight through this blog and through debate and peaceful means till that vision of peace and democracy and freedom is real. Only the Lebanese people, as one unified nation will accomplish this. One thing is certain, this new free Lebanon will not come through Israeli tanks; nor will it be born out of Israel’s destruction of the country.
In the past, Israel proved that it only see Lebanese as worthless servants of its regional ambitions (SLA), potential servants, or terrorists. Basically they’re people either fight her proxy wars, prove their “good Lebanese” by doing her strategic betting, or be candidates for assassination. The Lebanese people are expendable to Israel and it’s proving this today without a doubt.
Many of the commenters here, Israelis and supporters of Israel just managed to display their fucking ignorance and their twisted minds. They’re dying to split the Lebanese people and undermine their national unity at the one time they need it the most. They’re cheap inciters and so fucking stupid. I’ll just respond quickly to some of them; too many mother fuckers and evil twats to deal with here in any comprehensive way:
Jdwill
If my home of Michigan was Israel, and we were perpetually under suicide and rocket attack by the masked thugs I see in pictures, we would have gone medieval on our attackers long ago.
And if your little home of Michigan was Palestine, and it was destroyed by fucking migrants from Europe and you lost your home and your family was thrown out of the country and then you lived under military rule of your enemy for 40 years I’d think you’d be one of those masked thugs and have gone medieval; ohhh yeah! I hope you head is not so fucking thick to find this so difficult to comprehend.
Sir Sefirot
I think Israel is doing a hell of a good job in that. Feel proud of being a first class observer of what real 1st class warfare is.
It is exactly people, sorry, low-life organisms, like you sir-fuck-sefirot, who make good fodder for fanatical minds, either as a perfect ass hole or as a perfect victim. If you were so 1st class how come a few 10th class fighters from Hamas and Hizballa can still destroy your tanks, and kill and capture your fucking soldiers?
Skipsailing
Now you want us to sympathize? why? We in the west have been bombed and threatened and bombed and threatened for long enough now.
So run to syria.
I can’t imagine that the Lebanese people when they ask for solidarity and sympathy that they ask fucked up retards like you . Shove your sympathy up your ass and go fuck your self.
When will you people realize that we've had enough of your games? Prior to 9/11 Americans might have bought the middle eastern nonsense but not now. Too much evil has been done in the name of your God. Islam is clearly a threat to civilization.
I’m glad you’re not the spokesperson for the “West”; otherwise I can see sending them nuclear bombs crashing into Indonesian and Pakistan. This has fucking nothing to do with 9/11; so don’t jump on the wagon. You may be able to convince few Bush-like no-brainers with your fucked up logic, but I think any person with intelligence can see through your ignorance and racism.
Shmulik,
we know many of our soldiers will die, yet we summon the courage to fight militant, 7th century style Islam and so should you.
You bet, with what your government is doing, that many of your soldiers will die, and they will be crying “eeemmaaaa” on the battle field videotapes, just like the old days when you stayed for 20 years in the South before you were DEFEATED. And don’t kid yourself about the cause of the war; there are more Jewish militants in Tel Aviv, Hebron, and Jerusalem; so may a good fight should start there; against Jewish militants 4th century B.C. style!
The vitriol of many of the comments posted compels me to write.
First off, unlike most of the other people spewing their opinion on this blog, I'm an American who has actually spent time in Lebanon, Syria and Israel.
The conventional wisdom among most Lebanese I know is that Hezbollah is made up of a bunch of crazed, psychotic douchebags. Furthermore, it is the considered opinion of most Lebanese I know that Israelis are also a bunch of crazed, psychotic douchebags. Letting the psychos 'play' with one another on the southern border while the rest of the country got on with their lives has been the Lebanese Way for some time now.
I don't know anyone in Lebanon who thought kidnapping a couple of IDF soldiers was a good idea, but I do know that Israel's scorched earth policy is not making Israel any friends.
What the IDF is doing is criminal. It pains me to hear that people are fleeing their homes to Syria. At least Syria is a secular country, one where all faiths are tolerated. That whole pesky dictatorship has a big downside, but it's better than getting killed by the IDF.
Good luck.
Israel could no longer stand Hezbollah being on it's northern border, attacking them daily. Since the ordinary Lebanese, such as the writer of this blog, were unwilling or unable to fight them, they had no choice-they had to do it themselves. One of the things they have to do to prevent Hezbollah from resupplying was to cut off all methods of shipping in more rockets. This, unfortuantly, means a naval blockcade, and bombing the airport, roads and bridges-which has the unfortunate side effect of making it hard to get OUT of the country as well.
The Israelis had no choice here. Now, it is quite possible that it was impossible for the Lebanese to oppose Hezbollah, but I'm sensing a lack of will to do so as well as a lack of means.
To anonymous: "Also, Hezbollah's attacks against Israel are infrequent. Ask the IDF. Has Hezbollah ever done to you what you are doing to Lebanon?"
Hezabollah is doing to Lebanon exactly what you are seeing on the TV. Hizbollah brought IDF to Lebanon. To the middle if Lebanese cities. IDF is where Hizbollah is. IDF is where Hizbollah brought it.
And I am sure that if you are watching your TV, Hizbollah attacks on Israel seem to you very unimportant and do not effect you.
You have no idea what Israelis of Lebanese. You have no idea what IDF is doing in Lebanon and no clue what IDF is targetting. I am sure you were posting on the net your horror when you heard in the last years about Hizbollah attacks on Israel and cried out the injustuce of Hizbollah's actions against a country that they have no claims with. right?
I hear people saying that Lebanon's future will not come from Israel's tanks... Lebanon's future will not come from Hizbollah. Do you realize that? Lebanon's future will not come from letting attacks on Israel from parties that sit in the Lebanese government. Lebanon's future will not come from apathy to actions coming from its territory and passiveness of their army. Lebanon's future will not come from Syria or Iran. At least not a good future.
If Lebanon's future is to come from anything, it is from the strength and resilience of the Lebanese. And I don't mean the ability to attack Israel. But the ability to take fate into their own hands and control the present and future of their country. But at no time can the Lebanese close their eyes to their neighbors from their south and the pain inflicted upon them from within Lebanon.
Israel's policy, admitted, is not about gaining frieds now. It is about gaining their soldiers and securing their future. You may think that Israel is doing exactly the same, but if you don't live in this area and is foreign to it's psyche, you may not know enough to be a good judge of things.
Israel withdrew from lebanon six years ago? Since then it did nothing but to try and be as quiet as a mouse with Lebanon. Did Israel gain friends in Lebanon? Six years and not the slightest change in the southern border for the better. Only for the worse. Not the slightest signal from the Lebanese that they care about the Israeli problem. And when the Hizbollah invaded Israel?... not the slightest signal of help. Not the slightest signal of accountability. Israel can sit back and shut up and accept kidnapping and killing of its people, or not. Israel thinks it has shut up long enough. Israel is coming after it's enemies. Not Lebanon, but the Hizbollah. Will Lebanon get hurt on the way? Undobtably.
Who can you blame? Whoever you want, including yourself whoever "you" are. It all depends if you like to blame or take responsibility.
If Israel wants to take responsibility it will have to realize that it shouldn't have let Syria and Iran control events in the area. (How? I dunno). And at the same time take extreme measures to establish all encompassing peace (while getting enough assurances from ALL of it's arab neighbors that true is TRUE). Israel must not be trigger happy, as much as it can, even when it sometimes seems impossible. Israel must look at it's action in more critical eyes. Israel must try its best to be moral beyond any doubt, even when it seems impossible. Israel must again and again give it's neighbors the opportunity to do the right thing even when they proved in the past that they do not want/care/can. At the moment, Israel may want to consider withdrawing for several days from Lebanon and let the Arab world (the sane part), Lebanon and the world including the UN get their soldiers with back home immediately and remove Hizbollah, Syria and Iran from Lebanon.. and yes, the world has to do it if Lebanon, as it does, claims to not be strong enough to face Syria and Lebanon. The world has to do dirty work here. (If that doesn't work, I don't know what would)
If the Arab world wants to take responsibility, it will have to realize that their hate for Israel is not a fruitful thing and that is about time to stop extrimist and terrorism and embrace Israel. As hard as it sounds.. as impossible as it may sound to them.. thats what they need to do. Wishes of Israel's destruction will bring nothing but destruction and decay to the arab/muslim world. The Arab world has defined itself for too long on its hate for Israel. Its about time the Arab world defined itself on love for it's own. (How can that be done with forces like Iran? I don't know. I never said the challanges are easy or even surmountable).
If the world (Us/EU/and the rest of it, including all the readers of this blog) wants to take responsibility, it is that it can not continue to "not give a f@#k" as it is now to what happens with Israel, even when Israel is doing horrible things in their eyes. Israel security is to be the concerns of every one in the world, because lack of it will not bring quiet to the world. If Israel is left alone to worry about it's security, Israel will act alone. And this is the case now. The world expects Israel to behave while it cares none about taking actions to secure Israel's future. You don't want to take that part? Accept the consequences of a country surrounded by avid enemies who openly calling for its destruction, taking actions it deems necessary to secure its future.
If the Lebanon and the Lebanese want to take responsibility, they will have to realize that Israel can be a neighbor to them like it is a neighbor to Jordan and Egypt. But for that they need to get rid of Syria, Iran, the Hizbolla and any other force of hate and terror from within. They need to do that despite the risk to themselves. And hopefully, with help from the world or even Israel, they can. As impossible as it may look, any other route will only perpetuare conflict. Lebanon must make real peace with Israel. Signed and executed. Control the border, recruit a real army to control the peace and disarm risks to it. If Hizbollah tries to object, Lebanon will have to decide who controls the fate of it. I know Lebanese are affraid from civil war. But if civil war is the result of wanting to live in peace with Israel, what are we saying here?? Lebanon should realize that Hizbollah can not and should not part of Lebanon's future, not for Israel's sake, but for the Lebanese sake.
I hope what I am saying makes sense to any of you, beyong the screen of anger and furstration.
...as vexed as ever.
who are the terrorists?
Anybody who doesn't know the answer to this question, is with the terrorists.
Terrorism. You know. Suicide bombings. Hostage taking. Plane Hijackings. Cold blooded murder of the innocent. The evil shit that the so-called "Party of God" does.
It's not that difficult to understand what real terrorism is, for people who aren't supporters of terrorism.
Unsigned,
“And if your little home of Michigan was Palestine, and it was destroyed by fucking migrants from Europe and you lost your home and your family was thrown out of the country and then you lived under military rule of your enemy for 40 years I’d think you’d be one of those masked thugs and have gone medieval; ohhh yeah!”
Sorry Charlie, that tired Palestinian bullshit isn’t flying for me anymore. I’ve read my history from several sources since 9-11 and the entire Arab community around Israel needs to face up to what a bunch of stupid, stone ignorant, losers they collectively have been since 1948. I am not saying the Palestinians haven’t suffered loss, but they refuse to own up and pay up for their own mistakes. Further, political capital that the Palestinians had with me has been squandered since 9-11 by stupid and hateful behavior.
As to 9-11, 7-11, etc. – fairly or not, Palestine is being linked to the global Islamic Jihad, not least by the Jihadis themselves. And like it or not, the lack of sympathy you are getting from many posters is due to people being fed up with the violence of Allah praising thugs everywhere.
Oh yeah, and one possible solution, my ‘little’ state of Michigan could sell its upper peninsula to the Palestinians and they could have more land that all of Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza combined with fresh water beyond their dreams – a tad cold though. That way maybe the rest of the planet could move on to new business. Trouble is, that wouldn’t solve it for them, would it? I have read the Hamas Charter. And various Lebanese posters have the balls to call Israel a racist state.
We have been pretty welcoming of immigrants in Michigan, if we behaved like you, Dearborn would be under siege, instead of a highly prosperous community.
This is turning into a rant too, but I hope some Lebanese will hear me. I have really liked most Middle Easterners, especially Lebanese, that I have met. Most of this has been professionally, so I realize, I have probably been meeting the better half. What is pissing me off, though, is the behavior of the aggregate. You can’t keep crying for yourselves and really get my sympathy until you get a real grip on giving Israel the same human compassion you desire. You complain that Israel is a bully and too strong, but you and your neighbors made Israel that way with your long history of wars to destroy her. The hollow lie behind the ‘occupation’ line is that your wars of aggression and suicide attacks brought it on.
The positive thing to do now would be to use the current hot Israeli anger to rearrange the chessboard so that intransigent war makers like Hamas and Hezbollah are marginalized and at least disarmed of long range weapons. Screaming to the UN and the world to make Israel stop with no real plan to end the siege of Israel will only make thing worse in the long run.
This could be an opportunity, if only the Arab politicians could see beyond zero sum game rules. The Lebanese could ally with Israel against the haters. This could be a third way solution other than endless low level warfare or a cataclysmic war that really crushes the Arabs. That is what I am hoping for. Maybe my skull is too thick, … or maybe yours is.
Fight for your country and give your life for it if that is what it takes (or whine and go to Syria and don't solve your problem). Don't expect me (U.S) or any other country to do what you choose not to do.
If you and your fellow Lebs don't have the guts to take control of your country than I do NOT care what happens to you. Your country, your problem, and if it becomes our problem I would be quite in favor of helping all Islamic extremists go to the afterlife.
Same goes for Palestine and their problem; they kept Arafat in power and then vote for Hamas and I'm supposed to care? Not likely.
I'm sure all the prayers that other posters mention will solve the problem.
Funny how you can blame the U.S. for your/Middle Eastern/Arabic/Muslim problems.
Ron
LP,
my comments levelled indirectly at you on Michael's blog were despicable and low. Lower than low. They were beyond ignorant. I offer you my sincerest apologies.
a word from israel:
no doubt you hate me right now and i must say i am not overly happy with lebanon. nonetheless, i hope you will not dismiss what i have to say. i admire you immensely and your sacrifice for democracy. emotionally and politically i am with you 100%. and yet there is the bottom line: you and your friends who support liberal democracy do not have the power to stop the attacks on us. i pray that some day you will. at the moment you do not. israel has to act in the reality of what exists at this moment. i say this as someone who has never seen beverly hills and who sits right now wondering if his friends in haifa are ok and worrying about the possibility of missiles hitting tel aviv. i have also seen war and violence. i have seen what happens when a bomb goes off in a crowded bus. i know what it is to meet people who no longer have arms or legs because of war. i know what it is to wonder helplessly if your loved ones are still alive. i know what it is to wear a gas mask. i've felt the rage you feel right now. so i know that nothing i say at this moment will assuage it. i hope that sooner rather than later - and perhaps, indirectly, aided by our resistance to hezbollah - you and your compatriots will be victorious and our mutual rage will become irrelevent. right now, we israelis feel we have to fight with everything we have or lose everything we have. you believe we have overreacted. you may be right. on the other hand, perhaps we are not entirely wrong in our existential fear. looking in, you probably see us as immensely strong and powerful. looking out, we feel small, surrounded, unbearably vulnerable. we may both have a point. for your suffering and the suffering of your fellows, i can only extend my sincere and heartfelt sympathies.
benjamin
""It is exactly people, sorry, low-life organisms, like you sir-fuck-sefirot, who make good fodder for fanatical minds, either as a perfect ass hole or as a perfect victim. If you were so 1st class how come a few 10th class fighters from Hamas and Hizballa can still destroy your tanks, and kill and capture your fucking soldiers?""
Oh, here we are. So, you are making ethic judgements about my opinions (I guess, for being interested in the military side of the conflict more than the *spit* civilian one), and RIGHT AFTER you ask me a question about military. Call this hipocrisy.
Everyone can kill anyone if given an opportunity. In fact, it's quite easy to destroy a tank if you ambush it, for the bottoms and turret of the tank are very vulnerable, even Merkava's ones (and you can hit them easy with a mine or rpg). It isn't the first time that happens, it won't be the last. But you just have to look at the casualties count, that dreaded casualties count, and tell me: Who's winning?
Then come back and I'll tell you that, if Israel wanted Liban to dissapear, it would no longer be there.
Israel is exercising an extraordinary restraint right now in its offensive. It isn't an "all-out war" for Israel. If it were, you would'nt be posting right now. If Israel wanted Liban to dissapear, the dead count would be more like 50 to 1.000.000. Why isn't it this way? Because Israel are a civilized, wise and tired country that knows exactly what war is about, and don't want to create unnecessary destruction. Just the necessary.
In fact, more than blame Israel for anything, if I were you I would pray that Hizbollah don't make them mad enough for them to get at the point of a real "all-out" war. You would'nt like that, guaranteed.
If you ask me, I would be just as pleased if that happened.
JDWill,
I’ll take back my “little Michingan” reference; seriously, my mind is not that thick, neither yours apparently! I had no intention of insulting your national pride; I met many people from there and like most Americans I know they are good and fair-minded people and some are excellent friends. It’s just the way you earlier assumed Michigan to be Israel, and Israel, or Palestine, is little as you yourself informed us; so that was my point. Palestine is indeed a very little area and Israel is chipping at it everyday, now owns almost 80% of it and is turning what is left into reservations or Palestinian ghettos.
I also completely support your plan of giving part of Michigan away to solve the problem; except I’d say first you take back all Israeli Jews who are actually from Michigan and are double passport holders, who for some reason Michigan and many other great states in the USA are not large enough, and somehow Israel is more of a real home (though interestingly they're just as Americanas you are and don’t want to give up their US citizenship). OK, this is done, then ask the Palestinians to join in and I’m sure many of them would love to do that; as a matter of fact, this could be part of a real solution, and it might work, especially if it’s seen as a complete deal that would include real and just solutions to all sides of the conflict. I urge you to work with your people and government to make this part of any future peace deal in the Middle East.
Now with all respect to your knowledge and experience about the conflict, let me say that some of your statements are inaccurate and that even many Israelis would dispute them. Let me just give one example. You mentioned something about the, “hollow lie behind the ‘occupation’ line is that your wars of aggression and suicide attacks brought it on.” This is the first time I hear that suicide attacks brought about the occupation. First, these attacks, which I consider terrorist actions, morally wrong and political counterproductive, started after the first uprising; that is some 20 years after the occupation started. If you want to be a bit more logical, you’d probably say it’s the occupation that brought about this kind of terrorism.
Second, many people and scholars and even Israeli politicians would disagree with you over your characterization of the Arab-Israeli wars. I know it’s a standard Israeli propaganda line that all of these wars were about the survival of the state and that Arabs have been the aggressors; but this myth, like many others about this conflict, is at least being critically reconsidered. Menachim Begin himself, no lover of Arabs or Palestinians, said that Israel had a choice in 3 of its wars (1956, 1967, 1982). This is a messy and meticulous topic, but I urge you to look more carefully at the history of those wars, including the 1948 when Israel was founded and the 1967 war when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza and Golan. Be open-minded and consult DIFFEENT sources, different perspectives, different narratives, different academic studies, and make a more informed judgment.
Third, Even if one hypothetically assumes the Arabs were responsible for all of this and Israel had no choice but to occupy the West Bank and Gaza, how can you justify the duration of the occupation, the illegal settlements, the apartheid system enforced there in treating Jewish settlers and Palestinians, and some of the most brutal and degrading systems of control that Israel practices over the Palestinian population there since 1967? Why don’t you have a closer look at the reports of Human Rights Watch, Amnesty, International Commission of Jurists, and other legal and human rights groups, and, again, make a more realistic and informed opinion about the question of the occupation. And when you do that, please think to your self, what kind of life you’d have and what would you do if you were in those circumstances? I urge you to do that; may be you’ll have a glimpse of the evil of the occupation and a spark of empathy with the suffering of ordinary people like you who had no choice in the matter.
And if none of this is good enough, I urge to take a month vacation from your job and go stay in a refugee camp in Gaza or any town in the West Bank and find out the facts for yourself. Good luck and peace to you.
But you just have to look at the casualties count, that dreaded casualties count, and tell me: Who's winning?
A very intersting way of measuring winning and loosing! If this is your standard, then I invite you to look back into history and tell us who is the biggest winner of all?
It's not THE measure reference, but it is an interesting one when refering to power.
Precisely, the point is that it isn't bigger, not because Israel can't, but because Israel doesn't want to.
BTW, if that was the standard, the biggest all-time winner would be the URSS with 90 milion under their belt.
"Evil triumphs when good people do nothing"
That is the story of the christian and sunni people of Lebanon.
You have done far too little and allowed evil to triumph.
You have, in your own words, befriended Hizzbollah and their supporters instead of arresting and inprisoning them.
You have allowed them to control your southern border.
You have failed.
It is tragic that Israel has been forced to do your work!
"Evil triumphs when good people do nothing"
Hello!
It's too bad things have come to this. I can understand the humiliation in seeking refuge in Syria. Good luck, and may all the things you wish will take place in a brighter future.
G. student. 23
Haifa, Israel
I can understand you and I feel so sorry that things have already came to the edge :(
Your people are suffering & so are mine...I don't know what to say...I just pray & hope that it will be over soon because I can't hear about people that are dying ,I can't stand the explosions around here & I can't watch the pictures from your country because it's sad to watch the chaos that my army "threw" there...
I just wan't the soldiers to be safely brought home to their families and this war to stop!!!!
Please take care...
Karmiel,Israel
Oryx,
You might be able to fine tune my history, but you are missing the high points.
1. Each of the wars up to and including 1973 were cases of the surrounding Arab countries preparing to or actually attacking Israel. Do you deny this? If am wrong about 30% of the case for one of these wars, does it change the broad historical reasoning? Do you deny that a stated goal of many of the Arab states in the Middle East was to remove Israel?
Doesn’t it follow that the Israeli’s would have a siege mentality and be prepared to attack and hold territory to establish a buffer? Wasn’t the occupation in Lebanon due to Arafat’s use of same for a base for sniping attacks?
Frankly, the hot spot of the Middle East is tiny. Gaza looks like it wouldn’t make a decently sized metro area, let alone a country. Obviously, this crowding is a big factor in the tensions we see there.
2. We both would probably wind up agreeing that occupation (without assimilation or rehabilitation) is not to anyone’s benefit. And the settlements were wrong, they were attempts to change facts on the ground.
But it appears to me that the Palestinians with the aid of the UN and some NGO’s are complicit in sustaining the occupation as a way to sustain the asymmetrical conflict. When a resolution was attempted via Oslo, the chance was squandered by a corrupt PA that cynically used the conflict and hatred as a way to deflect attention from its sins.
I hate to say this, but the level of hatred and incitement the Arab world has invested in the Palestinians can only reap the whirlwind for them. I think they need a Douglas MacArthur and unfortunately the current world political climate and world media would not allow such a draconian solution.
3. So without getting too bogged down in detail, we arrive in a new millennium and seek some form of closure to the mess. The problem is that states that have little to lose themselves hold Palestinians and Israelis in a pressure cooker. Now Lebanon is used as a pawn and sacrificed to put counter pressure on America so Iran can forge ahead and become the super power of the Middle East. Does this match your calculation?
Where is the solution?
A. I suggest that those of you in Lebanon that have embraced democracy and are looking to break out of the cycle of corrupt tyrants and religious extremists hold the best hope for the Middle East. Israel may be your best natural ally and to my dismay you are at war with them!
B. I am keeping my fingers crossed that Prime Minister Saniora and Prime Minister Olmert can agree on a cease fire that displaces HA from the south and replaces it with the Lebanese Army.
C. Then, I hope you and other Lebanese thinkers really dig in and dispassionately review the facts of what happened. You should be really pissed that Iran used you this way. Maybe then point A can be salvaged.
BTW – I downloaded Google Earth and as an experiment put the Middle East in view so I could see Israel and Lebanon at the same time. Then I panned back to Michigan and I am pretty sure that our UP is bigger that Israel, Palestine, and Lebanon combined!
Oh, and we aren’t giving it away. Suggest a bidding start.
Peace indeed.
History lesson needed:
The last I heard, the Christian side in the Lebanese Civil War made peace but remained strong and actually do control a lot of Lebanon. Since 9-11, I have assumed that the CIA or US Special Forces were working once again with the "good guys" in Lebanon for the moment when they would finally take back ther country from Hezbollah.
So I would assume the leftist bloggers here do not represent the people in Lebanon who want to work with Israel, like they did last time...correct? Or has the Christian population gone majority left wing?
I mean...not all of the Christian Lebanese are left wing are they? Are the pacifists in a majority?
I am not here to criticize anyone for making the wildest statement of the year with "I wanted to see my stock porfolio grow and give my children piano lessons" when they should have been arresting and imprisoning their pro-Hezbollah "friends".
It is not as if you haven't been aware that your government is ultimately under the control of Iran and Syria?
quit the bullshit with left or right, Christian, Muslim, Jew or non-believer (like me, yes that's possible to).
Nobody wants a bomb on their house, business, school etc.
Ofcourse the majority of Lebanese lived there lives not thinking all day wich Hezbollah should I put in prison today.
Most of the people here react as if they are politicians themselves, knowing exactly what others are supposed to do and how to react.
And the average man on the street in Lebanon needs to be blown away because 'his' government has failed to get rid of the Hezbollah ?
Simple mind thinking perhaps, but from the hart.
Unlike the world-leaders, simple minded also, but with no hart at all !!!
'If nobody listens to nobody there will be deads instead of words'
Alex, The Netherlands
And, here's what's happening across the border.
http://www.me-ontarget.com/the_daily_tidbit/
You two need to recognize that you have a common interest. That is the ONLY way you will ever establish a stable, rational way of living.
I hope you don't get the impression from some of the comments here that all Americans are supporting Israel's unconcionable actions...
I don't support Republicans, although to hear some commentors say it, I'm responsible for their war mongering because I have Republican friends. Both the Republican party and Hizbolla are in pursuit of a greater war - their methods are different but the hate behind their actions are not so dissimilar.
I appologize for the miserey that American support for Israel has brought to your country.
I hope you and your family can find peace. If not in Syria, then somewhere...
LP,
I'm sorry that you're having the horror of this. While I cannot imagine it, I remember what I heard from my great-grandparents and what I hear from my grandparents and my cousins when they were refugees.
My relatives said some small part of the horror was seeing everyone else turn away. That observers would act as if the refugees were different than other ordinary people, as if the refugees were somehow culpable. That is, the observers were searching for excuses to ignore individuals, to treat individuals as if they were illustrations.
All you anonymous people-
You should come back here and apologize- a real apology, not some fake "too bad you made a mistake" apology. What this person is telling you is the equivalent of saying that his parents died. What you're doing is like lecturing him (in his own house- his electronic house) about how their deaths were their own fault. It's like having an argument at a funeral.
Do you not know anyone who was a refugee? Do you know no one who lost a house in a wildfire or a child in an accident? Would you be sanctimoniously lecturing them the day they told you about it? Do you have no sense that no matter how important you think your lecture is, you should wait until an appropriate time, not just anytime you feel like it? That it's not at all the time to be lecturing but to be listening?
hello sir,
it's me - your neighbour from israel.
i share your hate for war.
i believe there are no winners in it.
but -
you are (or were) the citizen of a democratic country, therefore:
1. you cannot allow terrorists to act from your teritory.
2. the lebanese government is responsible for all terrorist acts taking place in her boundaries.
3. the ways do deal with these organizations are the lebanese army and police.
4. israel is not the one to blame for lebanon's weakness.
to end this comment, i believe the middle east can be one of the world's wonders. may we finish this war a.s.a.p.
think about it
you levantine neighbour
I keep hearing this bullshit from Israel, Bush, etc., that they have to bomb Lebanon and the Lebanese people into the stone age even though they know it's really Syria and Iran that are controlling Hizbollah.
In other words, Israel is too much of a pussy nation to actually declare war on the countries that it knows are attacking it.
Shorter Israel: "We will attack Syria and Iran and fight until the last Lebanese are dead!"
I wonder how many of the Americans lecturing you about what hard work freedom is have ever done any of that work, rather than reap the rewards of being born American.
I'm so sorry for you. Nobody wants this war. All the summer is ruined. We are afraid all the time. Boom boom all the time. It sucks for both sides.
I know nobody can win in this stupid war. Our army should not attack innocent people. It's such useless, all of this. I hate it.
I wish that the world will put an end to this war.
I'm sad for you. For all the people who suffer for nothing.
Please be fine.
Ba bye.
Like israeli girl said, nobody can win in this stupid war. So for all the big guys in the comments above her knowing so much about history and how country's are allowed to respond or not, it's as simple as the statement from israeli girl.
At the end, we all lose. And for those who all have there mouth's full of 'freedom', and who are all having the same 'Anonymous' name. Please feel free to state you're name, it makes conversation much easier knowing who you are talking to.
'If nobody listens to nobody there will be deads instead of words'
Alex, The Netherlands
Getting rid of these kinds of organizations is a lot harder than some people commenting here seem to think. The truth of the matter is that people sometimes have halfway decent rationale for either supporting or at least tolerating them.
I was born in Algeria and lived there until I was twelve, when my parents finally said enough was enough and fled to the U.S. The first time in my life that I saw my country relatively stable was when I visited my old home in 2004.
I understand exactly how Israelis feel, in many ways, having had very close brushes with suicide bombings. My best friend's mother lost much of her family when the GIA massacred her birth village. In fact, I'm going to go further – I don't think any Israelis, save the remaining Holocaust survivors, have any idea how bad terrorism really can be, and how horribly innocents can suffer at the hands of fanatics. Your government can minimize the causalities. Mine really couldn't.
Here's the thing, though: Papa voted for the FIS (for those of you who know nothing about Algerian politics – the FIS is Islamist, and the attempts to keep them from gaining power started the whole ball rolling) in the 1991 primaries, which started the whole thing. My parents? Are urbane Berbers, and pretty secular. But they, like many Algerians, wanted reform, and the FIS promised that. When I was very young, I thought the government was more the enemy than the Islamists; after all, as my parents carefully explained to me, the government had jailed their opposition, and that was wrong. Nobody knew that some of the Islamists had such teeth!
It's taken me some years to begin to understand why, even after the fighting turned ugly, it took so long for many in Algeria to see that, even though the government had done wrong by the FIS, the GIA et. all weren't good to support. The thing is that awareness is sometimes a slow-moving force. When you have been given reasons to think so-and-so is a good guy, and you haven't had the fangs aimed at you, it takes a lot to wake you up to the ugly truth that you've been hugging a snake. From what I understand, the Shi'a in Lebanon have been in that position. The Islamists lost support in Algeria when they started attacking the very people who had supported them before. Hezbollah has not, to my knowledge, made that mistake.
Sorry for getting all too long; didn't read in your comments, LP! I just hate that kind of talk; our lack of empathy for each other is what gets humans in trouble. Good luck with your travels, stay safe, and I'll be praying that this ends before poor Lebanon suffers more.
Separation of church and state is the only long-term solution to the Middle East Mess. Pitch in. Get'er done!
Dahia,
Thank you for a great post. Right on point, well written and much needed. Definitely not too long.
Jdwill,
I’m not trying "to fine tune [your] history,” rather urge you to reconsider your assumptions by examining things from a different perspective. That doesn’t necessarily change one’s overall political views or even the best way peace can be achieved now. But it demonstrates the complexity of the issues and may even help everybody empathize with each other's stories and concerns. So why don’t you have a look at these two sources. The first one is basically factual and documentary, including much stuff from the UN archives. It’s not the most exciting reading but it offers a unique perspective (more like no perspective or equal perspectives, as much as possible). You can find it
here. The second source is among the best and most balanced academic studies of the subject. It is a book entitled, Palestine and the Arab-Israeli Conflict: A History with Documents by Charles D. Smith. Read them (and whatever sources they may point you toward) with an open mind and draw your own conclusions.
Few more remarks:
- Arabs were not responsible for the Jewish siege mentality; this is more like an outcome of their peculiar history in Europe. Bu even fully appreciated, this mentality cannot justify Israeli actions such as what’s happening in Lebanon today and other things done in the past.
- I disagree with you on the reasons for the 1982 Israeli invasions of Lebanon. You can check the account in the book I mentioned above (and other sources). At any rate most Israelis came to realize that that was a mistake and a complete disaster. The goal was to destroy the PLO (instead of negotiating with it) and it failed to do that; moreover the invasion and its aftermath helped create Hizbullah.
- I think it’s a bit unfair to say that the Palestinians (and the NGOs?) have some invested interest in keeping an asymmetrical conflict with Israel; it’s like saying Palestinians thrive on perpetuating their own suffering. Yes there re many corrupt Palestinian leaders and even those who may profit from the conflict or serve other parties questionable interests and motives, but that you can jump fromthis to say that somehow the Palestinians have an "interest" in being on the receiving side of suffering. The fact is Palestinians have never been offered what meets the bare minimal requirements for a lasting and just solution. Oslo was an interestin experiment, and it could have worked; but unfortunately it failed, basically for mistakes from BOTH sides. It wasn't just the collapse of the meetings at Camp David that did it(again there are different explanations to why it failed and blamig Arafat is an oversimplification).
- The chances your appeal to the democratic elements in Lebanon will be taken seriously now are slim indeed. From all indications Lebanese are horrified at the viciousness of the Israeli bombardment. I think by the end of this war Israel would have succeeded in turning most Lebanese into either marginal, disillusioned and bitter refugees (like LP) or into sworn enemies.
good luck
Good luck to you.
That said, it is hard to feel sympathy for a country that allowed Hezbollah to create a de-facto state within its borders and has shown no will to remove it. Negotiations with the U.N. don't cut it. Why should the U.N. be involved in an internal Lebanese security matter?
You discuss wanting to teach your children piano, work, save for retirement. These are all worthy and admirable goals. The institutions that provide them, however, all come at a price. Your government has to be willing to pay that price to insure that they remain free.
To date, those payments have not been made. Hopefully your government will quickly realize this.
I made this point to a friend the other day. If Canada were lobbing anti-personnel missiles (and if there is a doubt about that, go here: www.strategypage.com/gallery/images/rocket_haifa.pps and "Save Target as") into Buffalo, NY or Detroit, what would the U.S. response be if Canada told us that it was a separatist group responsible for the bombings and that they could not stop them?
What would any democracy with the military might to stop the attacks do?
They would do exactly what Israel is doing right now.
And truly, I wish you good luck and safe passage to your destination. I hope this thing ends right now so people can get on with living, but I fear this will not happen.
Jeff
Oryx,
We could have a very interesting (and long) dialog about the roots of the Israeli Arab conflict.
You left out: Wikipedia - Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni , the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the riots in Palestine of 1929, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were driven out.
So we are addressing a conflict that is approaching 100 years of duration. I am a history buff, and will, if time permits, read the material you linked . I have glanced over some of it, but work and my current reading commitments (Spengler and Toynbee which are about getting the larger picture) won’t permit me to read an entire book on the ME just now. The fact is, we often have to make judgments based on limited information; that is the nature of human existence.
I will probably give Dr Charles D. Smith a pass as a quick scan of his ‘viewpoint’ reads like a CAIR release. You should realize that many Americans are very suspicious of segments of our academia.
I continue to have empathy for the Palestinian plight (and now the Lebanese one). In the end, I don’t think reading more detailed history is going to substantially shift my basic understanding of the following points:
1. Whether or not the Zionists had a right to (re?-)establish a homeland in the ME, the continual attacks have constituted an existential threat and have been the major contribution to their national sense of being besieged. Empathy for this as well as the plight of the Palestinians is a fundamental requirement to any future reconciliation.
2. The UN and various parties have institutionalized and manipulated the 1948 refugees for bureaucratic and political ends - Not only the Fatah, but Arab leaders and media have unabashedly admitted that the refugee issue and right of return are being used as a means to destroy Israel. Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser told an interviewer on September 1, 1961: "If the refugees return to Israel, Israel will cease to exist."
3. I don’t see where we disagree on 1982. In fact, the state-within-a-state meme seems to be a pretty close fit to now. Do you have a solution for this problem? Frankly, I don’t.
Finally, I gravely fear that you may be right about the damage being done. There doesn’t seem to be a good solution to fighting a non-state actor embedded in a civilian population. I don’t think the Israeli’s have really thought this through and are lashing out in anger and frustration.
A thinker I respect: Anthony H. Cordesman echos the immediate solution I agree with The best outcome would be for the Lebanese government to deploy the Lebanese army, take control of the south and disarm Hezbollah..
But if you read his entire piece, you get a very bleak view of the prospects for all of us.
Regards, JD Will
Courage.
And if your little home of Michigan was Palestine, and it was destroyed by fucking migrants from Europe and you lost your home and your family was thrown out of the country
Firsat you were the squatters to begin... The area was Jewish and Arabs are jsut conquerors... The ones that call themselves Palestinians are uin majority Syrians and Egyptians...
and then you lived under military rule of your enemy for 40 years
You forget to say "after having attacked them... I remember 1967!
I’d think you’d be one of those masked thugs and have gone medieval; ohhh yeah! I hope you head is not so fucking thick to find this so difficult to comprehend.
By now I am sorry that Israel didn't go medieval on the terrorists in Gaza and the West Bank... It may yet come, and they richly deserve it!
'Civilian Casualty'? It Depends
Those who supports terrorists are not entirely innocent.
THE NEWS IS filled these days with reports of civilian casualties, comparative civilian body counts and criticism of Israel, along with Hezbollah, for causing the deaths, injuries and "collective punishment" of civilians. But just who is a "civilian" in the age of terrorism, when militants don't wear uniforms, don't belong to regular armies and easily blend into civilian populations?
We need a new vocabulary to reflect the realities of modern warfare. A new phrase should be introduced into the reporting and analysis of current events in the Middle East: "the continuum of civilianality." Though cumbersome, this concept aptly captures the reality and nuance of warfare today and provides a more fair way to describe those who are killed, wounded and punished.
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There is a vast difference — both moral and legal — between a 2-year-old who is killed by an enemy rocket and a 30-year-old civilian who has allowed his house to be used to store Katyusha rockets. Both are technically civilians, but the former is far more innocent than the latter. There is also a difference between a civilian who merely favors or even votes for a terrorist group and one who provides financial or other material support for terrorism.
Finally, there is a difference between civilians who are held hostage against their will by terrorists who use them as involuntary human shields, and civilians who voluntarily place themselves in harm's way in order to protect terrorists from enemy fire.
These differences and others are conflated within the increasingly meaningless word "civilian" — a word that carried great significance when uniformed armies fought other uniformed armies on battlefields far from civilian population centers. Today this same word equates the truly innocent with guilty accessories to terrorism.
The domestic law of crime, in virtually every nation, reflects this continuum of culpability. For example, in the infamous Fall River rape case (fictionalized in the film "The Accused"), there were several categories of morally and legally complicit individuals: those who actually raped the woman; those who held her down; those who blocked her escape route; those who cheered and encouraged the rapists; and those who could have called the police but did not.
No rational person would suggest that any of these people were entirely free of moral guilt, although reasonable people might disagree about the legal guilt of those in the last two categories. Their accountability for rape is surely a matter of degree, as is the accountability for terrorism of those who work with the terrorists.
It will, of course, be difficult for international law — and for the media — to draw the lines of subtle distinction routinely drawn by domestic criminal law. This is because domestic law operates on a retail basis — one person and one case at a time. International law and media reporting about terrorism tend to operate on more of a wholesale basis — with body counts, civilian neighborhoods and claims of collective punishment.
But the recognition that "civilianality" is often a matter of degree, rather than a bright line, should still inform the assessment of casualty figures in wars involving terrorists, paramilitary groups and others who fight without uniforms — or help those who fight without uniforms.
Turning specifically to the current fighting between Israel and Hezbollah and Hamas, the line between Israeli soldiers and civilians is relatively clear. Hezbollah missiles and Hamas rockets target and hit Israeli restaurants, apartment buildings and schools. They are loaded with anti-personnel ball-bearings designed specifically to maximize civilian casualties.
Hezbollah and Hamas militants, on the other hand, are difficult to distinguish from those "civilians" who recruit, finance, harbor and facilitate their terrorism. Nor can women and children always be counted as civilians, as some organizations do. Terrorists increasingly use women and teenagers to play important roles in their attacks.
The Israeli army has given well-publicized notice to civilians to leave those areas of southern Lebanon that have been turned into war zones. Those who voluntarily remain behind have become complicit. Some — those who cannot leave on their own — should be counted among the innocent victims.
If the media were to adopt this "continuum," it would be informative to learn how many of the "civilian casualties" fall closer to the line of complicity and how many fall closer to the line of innocence.
Every civilian death is a tragedy, but some are more tragic than others.
Please don't take many of the anonymous commenters here seriously. I doubt that many of them could even tell you anything about the geography or politics in the Middle East, had they not seen it on the news. Many are just knee-jerk reactionaries who make their uniformed decisions because it all seems "simple." I'm sorry to say to those of you that things like this are never, ever simple. They are complicated. President Bush understands that, so does Prime Minister Olmert, and President Siniora as do others in the Muslim world and beyond. There are no easy answers to the conflict. Saying "you are either with us, or you are with the terrorists" may make you feel good, but it offers no real, or lasting solutions.
Is the conflict Lebanon's fault, yes, and not. Yes, in the sense that they did not press Hezbollah harder to disarm or make disarmament a condition for their joining the government. No, because that is easier said than done, as it would have likely meant the start of another civil war between Hezbollah (and shiites) on one side, and Sunni, Druze, Christians on the other. A bloody affair which would have brought Syria, Iran, the Middle East monarchies, the US and Israel back into the country to support their side, making for another long drawn out civil war.
Many point to the fact that since the resolution passed in the UN calling for the disarmament of Hezbollah, the Lebanese did nothing to do so, other than to bring Hezbollah into the political fold. If you recall, this is the same process the United States is pushing for in the Middle East when it promotes democracy. Give all players a stake in the system, and they will moderate. Obviously the strategy did not work. Lebanon was trying to moderate Hezbollah by giving it a stake in the Lebanese state and the US supported it. President Bush, in fact cited Lebanon as an example of his successful policy of democracy promotion. This was after Hezbollah had joined the government. So yes, the US is also at fault, and so is the administration.
Additionally, knowing that Hezbollah needed to be disarmed, neither the US, nor the EU, NATO (or any of those who stand for something) seek to aid the Lebanese in training an army capable of taking on Hezbollah. For the past year, all we have been focused is on Iraq, gay marriage, the red herring of "cloning", the supposed war on religion in our country, vile Liberals, poor Tom Delay, curtailing our own freedom of the press and other politicking that failed to address the problems in the region. Had we engaged more with the Lebanese government, and provided it the aid and training its forces needed to take on Hezbollah, then maybe this would not be happening right now. My point is not to blame the US or the International community solely, but rather to point out that we are all at fault, not just the Lebanese.
In addition, many have brought the blogger here to task for having friends who support Hezbollah. This shows your lack of knowledge of the complexities of Lebanon, a country which is divided into so many sects, and at the same time united through familial and tribal affiliations that there is no way you cannot know someone who supports Hezbollah. Further, the reason many people support Hezbollah is not because they hate Israel or want to drive it into the sea, but rather because Hezbollah provides many Lebanese with social services which their government is unable to provide. Also, Hezbollah still retains the loyalty and/or respect of many for its role in driving Israel out of Lebanon after it occupied it for 30+ years.
As if all this were not enough, this conflict is more than just about Lebanon, it is about Iran, Syria, and the new geopolitical climate that we created when we toppled Saddam Hussein in Iraq (the only check on Iranian power in the region). This is not to say that we should have toppled him, but rather that we did so in a way that ensured that Iraq would not be strong enough to oppose Iranian influence and indeed fell for Iranian influence just like many other countries in the region.
In addition, before you blame Lebanon for hosting a terrorist organization in its country, you also have to look at what is happening in Northern Iraq. We control the country, and yet we have not been able, or willing to stop or deal with the PKK (a terrorist organization, as designated by the US government, and the International community) which for the past few months has been carrying out terrorist attacks, and guerrila operations in Turkey out of its base in Iraq killing tens of civilians and soldiers. Turkey is currently amasing troops at the border with Iraq and threatening to go in (despite American warnings against it) to deal with the PKK once and for all. The US has not dealt with the PKK for two reasons (and remember we have 130,000 of the best equipped and trained troops in Iraq). The first is because we are fighting sunni insurgents and shiite militias bent on toppling the Iraqi government. The second is because they are kurds, and although we recognize them as terrorists we don't wantt o open up another front in Iraq against them because that would turn the Kurds in Northern Iraq against us, meaning we are also taking stock of the situation and choosing to ignore a designated terrorist group from attacking a NATO ally. Is the US doing this because it supports terrorists? No. It is doing it because it does not have the man-power to deal with it, because it is still dealing with Shiite and Sunni insurgents in the rest of Iraq. In other words, it is looking at the reality on the ground and acting accordingly.
My intention here is not to blame the US, or Turkey, or Lebanon or even Israel as everyone shares some blame in this. Rather, I just want to point out the complexities before us.
For example, if in destroying Hezbollah, Israel topples the current government of Lebanon (which is pro-US, anti-Syria and democratic) and in its place leaves a Lebanon in tatters, either with no government or a government controlled from Damascus and Iran, then what does it gain in the long run. Most of Hezbollah are just foot soldiers, they are easily replaced, the main threat is Iran's Pasdaran and Syrian intelligence services which trained and equipped them. In turn, as the blogger in this blog notes, Israel's action is also turning Lebanese who opposed Hezbollah against Israel, meaning that not only is it destroying a democratic state with a pro-US government but also making enemies of friends.
That said, as the Sec of State has argued, we cannot return to the status quo where Hezbollah can continue to threaten Israel, but Israel also has to keep in mind that whether it likes it or not, the Lebanese will always be their neighbors, hence turning them against Israel now is not in its best interest. Yes, Israel must go after Hezbollah, but it must take greater care with civilan populations in Lebanon. In addition, it must also heed the US government (we do give them 3 billion dollars a year after all) when we say they need to find a lasting and diplomatic solution to this mess. Military actions alone will not solve this crisis, its been tried over and over again by Israel and 60 years on it still has the same problems.
I can Understand you..
you are right... you tried to stop Hezbollah. but we didn`t tried to stop Olmert. it`s our fault...
i am a jew.. i am proud in Who i am..
but i am not proud in my state\Country.
i am very sad that i didn`t stop Olmert..
i am not Anonymous ... cause i know that you right and i should reply with my real
identity.
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