This is a rant I posted in a comment to Michael Totten's blog. Commenters on this site, and especially on his site have been mercilessly rude and ignorant. I shouldn't even have written it. I don't have the time, but I'm steaming mad. This was written for an American audience. Aside from being Lebanese, I'm an American citizen who believes strongly in the Constitution.
I'm having trouble not using profanity.
I guess we in Lebanon should throw away everything that the United States has taught us. I was taught in school about the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I was taught to stand up to oppression and not use evil against my opponent.
I was taught to empathize with those in pain.
I was taught to do things, especially when a people had been particularly brutalized.
My friends and I have braved violence. We were beaten with batons and sprayed with water cannons by the pro-Syrian Lebanese government. We watched as our television stations were closed, all the while Hezbollah's remained opened.
Did Israel help us then? Did the United States or France?
We walked over Lebanese Army barbed wire to protest against the government and the Syrian regime.
We watched as our leaders, spokespeople, AND FRIENDS were assassinated on a monthly basis. Our neighborhoods were bombed. Our elected leaders were forced to live outside of the country in fear for their lives.
We kept pushing.
We pushed against Hezbollah to disarm the entire time. Some were bigots who made sectarian slurs. We kept our Hezbollah sympathetic friends and worked to changed their minds peacefully, as we know better than anyone outside of Lebanon the strange twists that sectarianism gives to every issue and how a terrorist organization can be the only hope for people who've suffered tremendously. The State Department and the White House understood this, too, which is why they cut the Lebanese government slack in disarming Hezbollah. They knew it was impossible to do immediately on multiple levels.
We watched as big countries with big arms and big international roles CHICKENED OUT (yeah, that's you America) about confronting Syria. We continued screaming against the terrorist regime, but no one would listen. Walid Jumblatt argued for the overthrow of Syria IN WASHINGTON!!! He gave a speech calling for Hezbollah to disarm and questioning the validity of one of Hezbollah's main issues: Lebanese sovereignty over the Shebaa Farms.
We had a National Dialogue in which we were trying to prevent war by making all parties amenable to change. This was after Hezbollah froze the government and kept the country in political limbo for months.
Is this not enough for you? What the hell more were we supposed to do? Honestly, what more?
It was only in the last few months that we were able to begin discussing the debates. The last assassination occurred on 12 Dec., 2005. After that the political leadership returned to Lebanon. But Hezbollah threw the government into crisis immediately thereafter. So, we've really had since May to seriously confront the issue. But we've got a hell of a lot of other issues to work through, too, that ignorant Westerners couldn't begin understanding.
Israel knew this and knows this. Condoleeza Rice admitted that Lebanon needed time to disarm Hezbollah. She knew that we had to solve this problem and that there was little any other country could do, which includes the US, France, the UN, and ISRAEL! They all knew that Syria and Iran were the targets, which is why they wrote UN Resolutions to these ends.
The entire time this was happening, we were reaching out through the internet to Israelis creating a human bond. Perpetual Refugee actually went to Israel and wrote quite passionately about his personal experiences there.
The whole time, we were being attacked by Hezbollah members and anti-semites. I argued with people on a daily basis. I argued with government officials. I argued with the Army. I argued with Islamists. But I guess that's not good enough. If the United States, France, and the UN Security Council are too afraid to do it, I'm supposed to.
So, Israel is doing it for us, eh? I thought they would impact on the local dynamic, at first. I thought Israel was going to help prove that they would not abide with Hezbollah's weapons and wouldn't let Hezbollah continue spreading the stupid myth that they can protect Lebanon. I thought this even after they bombed the airport. Okay, it's a major symbol. I don't like it getting bombed, but I get it. At first, they hit military targets and the airport.
But the devastation they have wreaked on us is truly horrendous. The US did not do this to the Iraqis. The US didn't do this to al Qaeda in Afghanistan, for crying out loud. Want to challenge me on this? Huh, you pale, pukish punks who've never done a damn thing in your lives for your armies and constitutions and who got everything handed to you; you punks sitting in your Pajamas (yeah, you there sitting in your Beverly Hills mansions writing movie scripts and worrying about the traffic on the way to Canyon Ranch); you who call liberals in the Middle East whiny for standing up for what we believe in at all times, including when it doesn't sound good to the Israelis and those whose lives are so pathetic they live vicariously through newspaper reports about the IDF and get their exercise for the day during when their adrenaline goes through the roof watching Bill O'Reilly scream at a child. Yeah, all you who want to challenge me, know that I've been to Iraq on multiple occassions. Friends have served and died there. The same goes for Afghanistan, where a good European friend is currently coordinating NATOs operations. I know well what the US did and does in those countries, and what Israel is doing here is far more merciless.
I've seen war in many places. I've studied when it is just and when it isn't. I take these things very, very seriously. This is not just.
I shouldn't even be telling you this. I shouldn't deign to your level of stupidity and ignorance. You people think you're well informed if you can name the leader of Hezbollah. You probably couldn't name the second in command if it would save your life. You probably can't even name the commanders serving YOU in Iraq. I know for a fact I know way more commanders, officers, and men on the ground in Afghanistan than any of you. You don't know war. I'm listening to bombs right now, as I write this. And by the way, my neighborhood was bombed earlier and I live on the top of my building. I shouldn't even be writing this because my bags aren't completely packed, my power is going in and out, my internet gives out every so often, and I can't make any phone calls. But I'm sure I'm just whining and that I couldn't possibly know how wonderful it is that Israel is liberating the world from terror.
Why debate someone who doesn't even know the facts? Well, because I believe in democracy. All of you vote, whether you deserve to or not, whether you've fought to or not. Just to vote, we braved assassination. Just to speak freely we braved more assassinations. Just to gather in large crowds we braved beating and water cannons. Just to live in our houses, we braved bombs and Hezbollah patsies rampaging through our streets hitting old men with wooden sticks. You brave any of that?
And you expect me to fight Hezbollah, when I've already done all of this? You expect me to immediately solve a problem I didn't create, even though I was doing a decent job of going about doing so with significantly less power. The US and France shied away, but I kept going. I tried to humanize the Israelis to my countrymen and stop anti-semitism.
Hezbollah learned from the United States. Ask Victor Davis Hansen or Mark Steyn. They'll tell you that the US should have never backed down when proto-Hezbollah destroyed the US Embassy. The US shouldn't have backed down after the Marine Corps barracks were destroyed. I agree with them. You shouldn't have. We wouldn't have all the problems with them today if they hadn't learned from you that their system works. They couldn't do any of this if you weren't bending over backwards to appease the Syrians and cuddle with the Iranians.
And you, of all people telling me to fight terror, expect Israel - tiny Israel - to fight Syria and Iran for you? I guess shouldn't be surprised you expect me to do the same, but to do even more than them with even less. Then, as I'm doing it, you poke fun at me, call me an Islamic fascist (which I'm pretty far from), say that I apologize for terror (even though it is my friends in New York, DC, London, Moscow, Beirut, Erbil, Baghdad, Jounieh, Naccache, and Beirut - some of which you couldn't point to on a map - who have all suffered directly from terror), and make my life miserable as I'm trying to evacuate a country.
You people are disgusting and completely ignorant. Sure, I'll whine. But let's see what you would be doing if you were seeing what I'm seeing from my balcony as I write this, if you were feeling the vibrations, if you were escorting refugees to safehavens. I read your comments to Michael before I took him down to Hezbollah areas, "Don't go! They'll kill you and chop your head off. Democracy isn't worth you going there."
And you tell me to fight for democracy...
From experience, from my studies, and from my instinct as a human being, I can tell you that Israel's campaign in Lebanon has gone above and beyond any realm of acceptability.
On the bright side, it might have accomplished two very difficult things. Disarming Hezbollah, you say? Nope.
1. Truly uniting Lebanese. We were close before. Now, it seems we are even closer. Prime Minister Saniora is now a national hero, and will hopefully now have the support he needs to govern.
2. Racist Lebanese have stopped hating the Syrian people with all their hearts and souls. We still hate their political system, but before this Syrian workers had been murdered for the crime of their nationality. We know they didn't elect their government.
I still don't hate the Israeli people. But there is no way I'll ever be able to trust Israel, and there is no way I'll ever be able to feel comfortable with all of the rightwing, massacre apologists who pompously spout rhetoric at suffering people.
Saturday, July 15, 2006
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106 comments:
L.P.
Good Luck. Not all of us are insane, not all of us think Isreal is justified at this point.
Ratatosk
One day a scorpion arrived at the bank of a river he wanted to cross, but there was no bridge. He asked a frog that was sitting nearby if he would take him across the river on his back. The frog refused and said, "I will not, because you will sting me."
The scorpion replied, "It would be foolish for me to sting you because then we would both drown."
The frog saw the logic in the scorpion's words, and agreed to carry the the scorpion across. But when they were halfway across the river the scorpion stung the frog. The stunned frog asked, "Why did you sting me? Now we will both die!"
The scorpion replied, "Because I'm a scorpion... and that's what scorpions do."
Lebanon Profile,
I've been reading this blog for over a year. I knew you were moderate on Israel. I am very saddened to read this post.
Never lose hope though. There may be an outpouring of support for Lebanon when this ends. The Lebanese political landscape may totally change.
There is no good solution while Syria and Iran play billiards with Lebanon as the cue ball. Lebanon is the pawn that Syria and Iran enjoy sacrificing. You are the buffer between the satan and them. This is your fate. This is no apology for the tragedy, for it is a tragedy. It is your fate. Blame whoever you choose to blame, it makes no difference in the end.
My hope is that you will have more support from your fellow Lebanese in fighting Hezballah now. Hopefully the people of Lebanon will see the destruction that Hezballah has brought down on them and place the blame squarely where it belongs and fight Hezballah with you now.
I hope that your people will agree to let the Lebanese Army force Hezballah out of the south and fulfill the demands for an Israeli cease fire.
I'm saddened and angered by what is going on in Lebanon now, but I completely blame Hezballah, not Israel.
Go to your nearest army station. Tell them you have come to fight Hizbollah. Bring all the friends you can who are true patriots with you.
As for the USA in this . . . George W. Bush is perhaps the sh*ttiest person ever to sit in the Oval Office. Bush brags that he only reads the paper to see "liberal bias."
Bush has a one month attention span. The USA has no foreign policy any more. This is the fault of the American people for valuing a candidate's personality over his policy ideas and knowledge and our own inflexible Constitution which has no possibility of firing a head of government for incompetence.
Very well said LP.
Just remember, despite the idiots cluttering up your threads, you are reaching people. Write for them.
You host Hezbollah, you get what you deserve.
Actually, you get somewhat better than you deserve. You deserve to die with them, which most of you will not.
It is not true the government has did nothing against Hezbollah, as everybody in the blogosphere is saying. We have opened negotiations with Hezbllah, we have tried to make them hear the voice of reason. For months we have appealled to their good will, but they had none. I admit that we failed. But what could we do? Start a civil war? Send the army against a whole sect, when Hezbollah is the most effective force in this country, and half of the soldiers are more loyal to Hizbollah than to the government? We didn't make that choice because we couldn't make that choice.
The US is in the same situation when it comes to Iran's nuclear programme. They can't use force, and have been reduced to appeal to Iran's good will. Did the US succeeded? No. It failed like Lebanon failed because some people are deaf to the voice of reason. The US has run out of option when it comes to Iran, including military options. Lebanon has also run out of options when it comes to Hezbollah. This does not mean that Israel is in the right of destroying an entire country for the regretable deaths of a few of its citizens. There's no Hezbollah fighters in Tripoli, in Jounieh or in Batroun, yet these cities are being shelled. This is not defense anymore, this is vindication.
Something I found on another blog:
"Hezbollah must redeploy north of the Litani River. It must surrender its rocket arsenal to the Lebanese army, which must take up positions along the border with Israel," Justice Minister Haim Ramon told Israeli television.
"If these conditions are met, Israel will agree to a ceasefire," the minister said.
Don't want israel invading your country and killing your people?
Then don't MURDER israelis!!!
It is a very simple formula. The israelis ache for peace while their enemies dip their hands in blood and hold them up for the world to see.
REIGN IN THE KORANIMALS!!!
I only discovered this blog two days ago and was very grateful to get a chance to see what was going on from the perspective of someone in Lebanon. Your writings have convinced me that my initial feeling that "Lebanon committed an act of war against Israel" wasn't correct. I still blame Hezbollah for all of this because they started it and they hide amongst the Lebanese citizens.
I'm sorry that you and your fellow Lebanese citizens are being put through such a horrible time. While I don't agree with all or even the majority of your points there is one in particular that I do. You are absolutely correct when you say that President Reagan's decision to abandon Lebanon after the 241 Marines were killed in the barracks bombing was a mistake. It was such a shocking and painful experience that his instincts on that occasion were wrong. America should not have backed down and abandoned Lebanon to the un-tender mercies of civil war and Syrian colonization.
Good luck evacuating to somewhere safer. Please post when you can. Please do not lose heart.
A fellow American.
A serious question - whose actions are more forgiveable, Hezbollah or the IDF? Whose have greater accountability? Since Israel is a well grounded democracy, does that mean that the entire nation has responsibility, to some degree, for the actions of the IDF? How is the same calculus applicable to Hezbollah? Which is more appropriate, collective punishment or individual punishment?
Great post LP...dont listen to some of these people after all, they are the ones who killed Christ.
You say that it was going to take time to disarm Hezbollah. Well, watch how fast Israel will disarm them.
After they are destroyed, your government will be able to send troops to southern lebanon and Israel will go home.
Realfreedom,
Was that a joke? Because I read as an ironic comment and it made me smile. Then I thought you might actually be serious, which is whack.
Just in case you all forgot about who it is Israel is fighting, a quote from the Wikipedia: Hezbollah has been labeled a terrorist organization by the United States the United Kingdom, the Netherlands, Canada, Israel and Australia; the U.S. Department of State accuses Hezbollah of killing up to 300 American citizens (over 230 of whom were U.S Marines in Lebanon). On March 10, 2005, in a non-binding resolution, the European Parliament voted overwhelmingly (473 in favor, 8 against, 33 abstain) branding Hezbollah in whole as a terrorist organization.
As for Lebanon, hey, here’s an idea. How about the next time a terrorist organization takes over your country’s southern border, you say no?
How about the next time a terrorist organization wants to run for office in your country, you say no?
How about the next time a terrorist organization has its members appointed to your country’s cabinet, you say no?
How about the next time a terrorist organization sets up shop in your capital city, you say no?
All of these things would probably go a long way towards not having Israeli aircraft bombing the crap out of your infrastructure—which also happens to be the infrastructure that supportst Hezbullah.
You want it to stop? Lebanon should have done something about it a year ago, when they had the whole world ready to rush troops in and back them up if they wanted to get rid of the terrorists. You chose the path of least resistance, and now your country is paying the price.
You expect the USA to do anything? Every time we get involved in MidEast politics some group or another starts complaining, no, not that fight, this one...so you want us to take on Syria, the next person wants us to take down Iran, well we as a nation are not the worlds police force. Solve your own problems. If you are so proud of Lebanon, go and help free them from tyranny. As a former soldier, I have seen my share of violence up close. Have the courage of your convictions, and do not expect others to do this job for you. Free your people, or be quiet. Any country that truley wishes freedom will make the sacrifice required to bring it about. Anything else is talk. And to those comments blaming the president, I say this to you, If you want the US to take on your pet projects, then get elected and make that decision. You find it easy to insult the chief executive in this country, to laugh with your friends at his decisions. Try that level of command yourself some time. It has broken lesser men. The decisions that send soldiers to die is the hardest one to make. Blogging is easy. It is only talk.
Take it any way you want...as far as Im concerned I refuse to let any jerk demonize my people, my country, or my religion.
I also refuse to debate with morons who try to legitimize the bombing of innocent people and homes.
LP,
I like you and I've read your blog for a long time. Don't leave any comment because there're nothing to leave when I know you're a rational, sound and very conscious of your thought. But I sense you're pulled in the whirl wind with your last 2 posts and seems like to lose your cool while under tested.
This is not a time for you to spill your emotion and wasting every precious moment that could be used to get out of that place and find a safe location. If anything happened to you, with the exception of just a few, they will all forget about LP in a second. So fuck them all. Take care of yourself first. Then talk when things calming down. BTW, I'm a Vietnamese soldier get to America in 1975 so I know what the hell I'm talking about.
Many things you say are true, but many are unrealistic.
I empathize with your rage. You are right that people--
Americans--such as myself, are involved in this matter only as spectators. Spouting our opinions from afar, out of harms way.
I selfishly hope things remain that way, but fear things could escalate to a point where America becomes all too involved for your comfort.
Take care
cdat...you make great points however Lebanon was always free. This is not about freedom. This is about political evolution that was disrupted with the insatiable appetite Israel has for blood.
Your 'love it or leave it' argument is quaint. However it’s not as simple as you perceive it to be. Then again perhaps you see most things in a simplistic manner.
LP - I read alot, leave comments less. But I want you to know that there are many watching this unfold who are thinking like you, obviously with less emotion because we are not under the stress you are under. I believe the Israelis were/are justified in going after Hezbollah militarily and seriously, but from the moment they bombed the airport I started to worry that they would squander the unprecedented support they were getting in the Arab world by overdoing it, not choosing targets wisely by limiting them to Hezbollah targets, or even Syrian targets - and turning that sentiment against them. It seems they have done that - at least with respect to you and I imagine many others. I served in the U.S. military and my husband is currently stationed in the MidEast - I have linked him to some of your comments and other Arab bloggers - he feels much the same way that I do...and by the way, he is Jewish. Again, I have immense sympathy for the Israelis and I believe they should do what they have to militarily to stop the rocket attacks and defend themselves...but like you I believe they have allowed their anger and emotion to get the better of them and they have chosen many targets that only turn the good guys in Lebanon against them. I hope for your sake AND the Israelis sake that they take a breath and start using better judgment as soon as possible. Stay safe, and when you have a calm moment - don't despair about the U.S...there are still many reasonable people who feel as you do... Debbie K
anonymous...this is in response to your posting
Actually its a fact...most Israelis come from displaced European Jews. By the way I have a punching bag so there is no need to purchase one.
My point is simple...Israel never gave Hamas a chance to evolve. Israel decided to be hardline. Sharon merely gave tha Palestinians what they deserved --A STATE.
How about the settlements?
What is your justification of illegal settlements? Yes the same settlements deemed ILLEGAL by your coveted Unites Nations?
How about the Kidnapping of eleceted officials?
How about the Detaining of thousands?
How about destroying an entire infrastructure and trying to tell me that its for my own good?
You speak as I should be 'grateful' or to understand how Israeli Facisits continue to oppress everyone around them. Israeli leadership and its nation was created with terror. Its hypocritical to call others terrorists if you know anything about your own history -- WAKE UP
I brought up Nazism to make a point. Its ironic to me how the
so-called chosen people of God can be brutal and so thirsty for blood...or should I say 'collaterol damage'
You have in fact made multiple haf-truths and fallacies. My point was simple: STOP DEMONIZING ARABS THE WAY NAZIS DEMONIZED YOUR PEOPLE. DIDNT YOUR PEOPLE LEARN ANYTHING?
IDF continues to bomb gas stations, homes and mosques in South Lebanon.
The IDF hve gone out of there way to take out everything in Lebanon.
You may perceive some of the targets as symbolic, but blowing up transportation infrastructure (airports, seaports, roads) is "Military Strategy 101". Choke off transport options so the enemy can't escape and then move in for the kill. Furthermore, Hezbollah got their Iranian and Syrian arms from somewhere and that won't be happening again for a while.
I'm not making any value judgments here. Just commenting on military tactics.
So if Hzballah drops rockets on homes and roads, why are they called terrorists? Isnt this part of your Military 101 garbage?
realfreedom, given the intensity of the Israeli action, it's amazing that the body count doesn't have another at least another one or two zeros on it. Don't think that's by accident.
What good can come out of making civilians suffer? Taking out Mosques and Churches? Sounds like Terror to me.
It is out of our hands. Hezbollah hides among you. They use you for human shields. In fact, they took you as their hostages and they shoot at us from behind your backs. If you want us to fight them - you should understand that the fight will not be easy on you. It can not possibly be easy on you. But do not blame us. We are not in this because we have nothing better to do. We do not make you suffer because we want to. Trust me - if we wanted to be indiscriminate and wage a Total War, we could. We have all the equipment. The only thing we do NOT have is a magical bomb that would selectively kill only high-ranking Hezbollah dudes and leave everyone else unscratched.
We were forced into this. We are trying to do our best. We are trying to wage a war without too much damage to you. Even if it is not always possible.
However, here is a thought - frankly, we owe you nothing. Yes, it would have been decent of us to help you before, and it would have been decent of us to rid you of Hezbollah twenty years ago. But it is not our duty. We fight them because we care about ourselves, not because we want to make your life better. We take you into account... somewhat, sometimes, - but if you want to be free - you should do that yourself. Yes, I know, you wanted to do it slowly, carefully, little by little - which is fine. Would have been fine, but there is a problem - they keep killing our people. And we do not want to tolerate it anymore.
Unlike some other guys, I do not think you deserve it. Nobody does. However, it is not our fault either. We did not choose the war, we did not choose the battlefiedl and we certainly did not choose you to be caught in between. We regret that you suffer, but we are not going to apologize for that.
P.S. And, yes, we should not have backed out when they attacked us in the past. Appeasement does not solve this problem. You can not buy off a terrorist. However, it is already done. What do you want us to do now? To chicken out again? If you think that was a mistake - why do you try to make us to repeat it?
One life is too many...thats the difference betwenn me and you. One is the same as one thousand.
realfreedom, whether you call Hezbollah terrorists, militants, freedomfighters or whatever, yes they have tactics too. Some of them, like using civilians for cover, is part of why a lot of you stuff is getting busted up right now.
Oh, wow, you have "negotiations" with the Hezbollah terrorists. How wonderful. That's real useful.
Hezbollah are terrorists. You don't negotiate with them, you don't work with them. You kill them. You hunt them down like the worthless dogs that they are, and destroy them.
Period.
You want to be a real government? great. Real govenments don't allow groups to make war on other countries for within their borders.
Your government is too weak to fight Hezbollah? Fine. Arrest every member of the Hezbollah political party, and ask Israel to help you destroy Hezbollah. Then do it. Hunt down their members. Kill them wherever you find them.
That's not what you're doing. You're making excuses. You're trying to cut deals. Which is to say, you're supporting Hezbollah.
So long as you do that, you don't get to bitch when Israel holds you responsible for what Hezbollah does from your country.
Is there anyone else that wants to post?
ok, so when you say:
"there is no way I'll ever be able to feel comfortable with all of the rightwing, massacre apologists who pompously spout rhetoric at suffering people"
what does that mean?! you do know that the authors you cite - Victor David Hanson and Mark Steyn - are squarely in the RIGHTWING camp. WE (the evil rightwing neo-cons) are the ones who believe the US should NOT have backed down after the embassy and marrine barracks bombings and destroyed Hizbollah. WE are the ones who supported the Cedar revolution and tried to get Syria out (don't think for ONE minute that the left was on your side. it was not.)
surely you do understand that every time the US acts decisively and flexes its military muscle, it is demonized and hated in the ENTIRE world. so now the rightwingers neo-cons ("cowboy diplomacy" they call it) who want to help you and your country are on the outs and it will only get worse in the future.
to recap: the RIGHTWING is the one who would be willing to save your ass so don't go around blaming them for your situation. all we can do is vote...and unfortunately our ranks are thinning.
i hope you are safe.
-fellow american
Sure, but I'm a bit busy coordinating the great conspiracy to add much to the discussion right now. Maybe later?
I am an American, and I'll tell you right now that the USA will not help. This is what George Bush and his neocons what to happen. Just read the Project for a New American Century documents people. They want to reoganize the Middle East to control the oil. It's right there in the documents.
I've been wondering how they were going to get the ball rolling against Syria and Iran. I thought they would unleash another False-Flag attack on american soil (i.e. 9/11), this plan was so much smarter.
Israel does the dirty work, then sucks in Syria, which then sucks in Iran. At that point, the US is in for all the marbles.
What other explanation is there for Israel's obviously extreem over reaction? They should not be bombing in the north of Lebanon, but they are.
I hope with all my heart that there is some US delegation that gets together to go over there, but my brain is saying no.
This is what the neocons's wanted. This is what they said they were going to do. These are the people that 50% of the country voted for. Now the world will have to live with their scares for a VERY VERY long time.
may peach be upon all of us.
Military 101 here again. Realfreedom said "One life is too many...thats the difference betwenn me and you. One is the same as one thousand." Well, I do believe that the Israelis would agree with you on that. But so long as there are going to be people killed, they'd rather it be Lebanese lives on Lebanese soil. Rarely do you find a war where both parties don't think they are right. By the way, I see that you're in New York City. Great town. Good place to appreciate some real freedom.
I am an Israeli.
I read this blog's every word. I am filled with emotions and depression with every post. I am reading every comment here. I am refreshing the page every 10 minutes..
I am reading this thread and banding my head against the wall wondering what can you as an individual do more. I truely don't know. I wonder how many like you are in Lebanon and want to believe that almost everyone even though I doubt that, seeing the way things are after six years since Israel withdrew and over a year since Syria as you say was pushed out after Hariri's assasination by the Syrians.
I read this post and really really want to know, as an Israeli...
You asked if Israel helped Lebanon... What would you have Israel do? I ask that with all honesty, humility and sincerity.. I hope you believe me.
What would you ask/tell/expect Israel to do to help Lebanon. You can say whatever you think, regardless of how demanding of Israel you think it is. Sitting back and suffer the attacks of Hizbollah and the giving up the kidnapped soldiers while waiting for Lebanon to manage to get Hizbollah? (I am not cynical. I am asking if that is what you expect). Offer military help? Money?
The second thign I want to know is - What is Israel doing now in Lebanon that you can see? Starting from the worst.
I heard that IDF is bombing roads, bridges and infrastructure. I heard that IDF is shooting movement on the roads from the southern Lebanon and beyond (hopefully because it suspects it is Hizbollah forces and no other reason). I heard that IDF is bombarding Hizbollah strongholds and bulding around Lebanon. I heard that innocent people are also dying from these attacks.
Are there worse things? Have you been a witness to outright civilian targetting? How did you know that? Where? When? How often? It was roumered that this happened. I wanted some confirmation from people I can identify. Did it happen? Are there more than 70 civilians dead then? Many more? Hundreds? or thousands?
I would like to hear from blog officials who actually witnessed things. Not from people who "heard" it. For Israelis to know what is going on in Lebanon, and it is very important to Israeli civilians as we see our enemy as Hizbollah and its supporters, not the wider Lebanese people.. It is critical for us to get information from Lebanon. We want to know. I want to know.
I hope you believe me.
I hope you believe that most of us dread hearing about Lebanese civilians dying. Even if they are caught in the crossfire. We have our share of hooligans, barbarians and mindless bums, as all nations, but they certainly don't represent us. (Please don't go into claiming that IDF is exactly that. Please leave bikerring aside for now).
I know.. Israelis do not think that the risk of death to innocent is a reason not to do what Israelis deem as necessary...Even at the Israeli side mind you all. since this operation most certainly brought death to Israelis as well.
I hope you believe me when I say that Israelis do not want Lebanon to suffer. I hope you believe me when we want to see Lebanon glorious as it once was. Free of hate, terror and harm. Thriving. Democracy.
I know... Many Israelis value their lives more than those of anyone else. I think it's human nature. But I know most Israelis value lifes of others just as well. It may not look like it shows when looking at the state Israeli is with the Palestinians. But as appearances go, appearances can be misleading.
I know Israelis. I know Isralis don't think that it's worth being silent and dying, just so that others would like us, but we DO want others to like us. Even when our country's actions are sometimes horrible. We are certainly not saints. But we live in a hellish region with hellish neighbors. I know Lebanese know that fact.
I hope you believe me when I say again.. I want to know.. I want to hear.. I want to be informed..
If this blog owners/writers can be witnesses, I would charish it. Try to put aside anger and communicate the horror from your side. I know it is hard. Mind you, unlike US which you are criticizing in this post, Israelis in general, and Jews in particular do know what horror is.
I hope you believe me, I want to hear from you.
What can Israel do.. that it didn't do?
What is Israel doing now in Lebanon that you have seen?
A vexed and worried Israeli
Ron, analysis by organizations with conflicting motivations show that outside of the cultural elite, pre-incident support for Hizbollah is widespread in Lebanon. What you're seeing here is the opinion of the cultural elite -- or at least one member of the cultural elite. Very insightful, but no more a basis to judge the country at large than to read the blog of a Meretz supporter in Israel.
Check "Corner Shot" in wikipedia. This alone justifies US support of Israel.
He is a typical whiner. They kill Jews and Christians and when someone stands up to them they whine and cry for infidels to help them. And yes, the shi'ite population is a legitimate target for sheltering and supporting hizbullah. Half these pictures being posted on here of dead Lebanese are likely people killed by hizbullah rockets. Typical muslim propaganda. They kill their own in Gaza, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc and blame it on the "infidels".
ron, my advice to you would be to stop worrying what others think about the Israeli attacks. The Israeli military will make you proud and defend your country from 7th century savages that have been utterly supported by a portion of the Lebanese population that rightfully should be punished.
Longing for a Christian Lebanon. As for the American whining about his or her own country, get your head of the sand you self-loather. You make all patriotic people sick.
realfreedom, Hamas is a 7th century terrorist group of savages. You are an ignorant leftist who knows nothing at all about the real situation on the ground. I proclaim that YOU are a nazi from your anti-Semitic responses. We'd only be so lucky if people like you were killed instead of good Jews who died at the hands of nazis and muslim terrorists. Why can't you die instead?
Stay safe.....not everyone in the US is backing Israel. This action was completely over the top.
Cheers
mu...muke or whoever you are....go to hell...even if Hamas were from the 7th century they are more deserving of having a homeland than your people...you and your ancectors are nothing but cave dwellers from the caucus mountains..you are the chosen pieces of shit...that nourished themselves with there own shit...look it up..so why dont you drop dead you son or a dirty whore
muwahhid, realfreedom is not a Nazi. Go look at his profile. He's a Lebanese decendant living in New York City. Of course he's upset... Look at what's going on? Wouldn't you be frustrated? Better him lashing out here and getting it out of his system than blowing himself up on my subway car on Monday morning!
muwahhid, you rock. i second your analysis of 'realfreedom' and as a new yorker, am f***ing terrified i have to live among these lemmings of the left every day of my life.
this whole left-islamists alliance is really quite a treat...
ron said:
take a look at this link
http://abdallah.hiof.no/july-2006/20060715-van.html
ok ill see talk to you guys lator....i have to go fuck my jew girlfriend she swallows :)
Reply to Realfreedom (by Ron from the above post).
I know you did not respond to my post and I do not answer on behalf of the person you were debating with before, but I saw questions that you had and wanted to answer them myself if I may, in hope that you want to hear another Israeli's answers for them...
"Israel never gave Hamas a chance to evolve"
The Hizbollah was given a chance to evolve. What was the effect of that? (This is how Israel is viewing it. At least me)
"How about the settlements?"
Settlements are horrible. They should never exist. They should be dismentled. Israel has no right building settlements on occupied territory. If it wants to build on occupied territory it must first claim it and make its existing residents citizens. That is how the majority of Israelis see it. This is how I see it. This is what will be in the end. The biggest settlements which are now cities (there are just two I think) will have to be addressed seperately and land exchange and border corrections will have to be made.
"What is your justification of illegal settlements? Yes the same settlements deemed ILLEGAL by your coveted Unites Nations?"
Answered above.
"How about the Kidnapping of eleceted officials?"
Hammas officials that were arrested are the leaders of the group that kidnapped the Israeli soldier and are leading a group that is deemed by Israel as a terrorist organization. It seems like Israel will prosecute them. As far as I know, they are Israeli citizens. By international law, it's legal. It smells bad, but it's legal. I unfortunatelly can't find reasons to object to that. I wish they would have instead, release the soldier or refrain from kidnapping him in the first place, but Terrorists don't seem to think that way.
"How about the Detaining of thousands?"
Depends what you mean by that. Who are those thousands.
"How about destroying an entire infrastructure and trying to tell me that its for my own good?"
Who are you? I mean, give me a reference so I can try to understand the full scope of the question. Assuming you are Lebanese for now, I would say that I trust (and want to belive that this is the case) that infrastructures that are targeted are either strategic or can be used as such by Hizbollah. As I previously posted, I hate seeing that. I hope there is a justification I don't know of for each such act that I am not comfortable about. As time passes, I and others will demend answers for that from the government and IDF. Infrastructures can be rebuilt. I see one dead Lebanese as worse than all the Infrastructure damage to Lebanon.
"You speak as I should be 'grateful' or to understand how Israeli Facisits continue to oppress everyone around them"
I hope you don't mean me speaking. But I also hope you do realize I do not view myself as an Israeli Facist.
"Israeli leadership and its nation was created with terror. Its hypocritical to call others terrorists if you know anything about your own history""
I don't agree with you. I do know that there were Jewish groups who employed terroristic tactics before Israel was founded. I do not think that it led to Israel's creation. And I certainly am not proud of the people who did that.
That being said, there is nothing hypocritical about saying that terror is wrong, even if your own history did entail that as well. Do you want to say that Palestinians in the future will never be able to claim that terror is bad? just because their ancestors used it?
"I brought up Nazism to make a point. Its ironic to me how the so-called chosen people of God can be brutal and so thirsty for blood...or should I say 'collaterol damage'"
I don't think Israelis are blood thirsty. Certainly not on days other than a day when they face a war and kidnapped and killed soldiers. I know I am not.
I know I and my friends and family do not want to see 'collaterol damage'.
You bringing Nazism has zero validity. I hope you yourself can also see your wrongs.
To hell with America and Bush and his failed stupid pipedreams for Iraq and his nightmare Road Map.
I speak as an America who see'sthe USS Titanic about to sink.
ISRAEL IS ANOTHER MATTER.
He's screwed Israel too many times with his restraint.
Honestly I was hopeing that Gaza would get all of this ,but Hezbollah's Nasrallah GOT STUPID AND GOT IN THE WAY.
You should have already hunted him down and made an example of him.
But ,you're wimps who like to sweet talk Hezbollah.
They only need one thing and that one thingis what they intend for Israel and the Jews.
I speak as a Christian who does not make my bed with devils as you do.
Your friendly talking with hezbollah was not enough .It was destined to fail.
Your illusion of doing something was to comfort yourself and justify the unacceptable status quo in the south. Now reality wakes up to sting you hard.
The barbaric anmials Israel has to deal with had many opportunities of restraint and patience by Israel and abused this kindness ,the Barak retreat from South Lebanon and goodwil gestures have all been used up.
What did Lebanon do with this golden opportunity ? Nothing but make useless excusesto do nothing.
Israel is always easy to push around or so you thought.
Let it slide ,who in lebanon cares about dead Jewish men women and children .
I'm sure you heard a few hezbollah sermons of hate ,but you got used to them and you got comfortable with a few dead Jews on your southern border and all the missles aimed at Israel from there.
That won't happen again ,will it ?
Now the currency of brut force wil l accomplish what you amd Lebaonon would never accomplish.
The days of hezbollah's free reign in Lebanonm are over and the days of assuming Israel would just take it are also over.
You don't care that Israel faces a deadly holocaust from Assad and amadinejad as long as the cheese and wine flow ,but some of us do and the proxy forces of Amadinejad in Lebanon must and will be ripped out by their roots.
The Arab/Persian moslems have proven that they only understand brute force and not kindness or overtures of peace.
It is war and destruction they shall have.
realfreedom, after you shoot your load (Jewish women rock!), head over to chickpea in the east village to get that taste out of your mouth with some good felafel. Mahmoun's is definitely better (the one thing you guys do right is shawarma and felafel), but Chickpea has some cool seating in the back.
ron for all that you wrote you really didnt answer none of the questions...well if you cant rhetoric then i guess you did.
So actully bringing up Nazism is indeed valid...but thanks for trying to answer the questions
take care buddy
no I actually like katzs deli.. thats one thing you guys are real good at...making cheap food and selling it for double or triple to make profit. Let me know if you want a knish or a pickle..with mustard ofcourse
Realfreedom. I scrolled up and read what I posted. I answered all of your questions. I do not know why you have to be antisematic, call jews scum, use profanity etc..
btw, the link you gave shows dead children. I know that innocent people die. These pictures are hearttearing. But I want as I said testimonies of melintent actions by the IDF. Ones that the writers of this blog witnessed and deem not mistakes or crossfire victims (although I know they see the entire Lebanon as a crossfire victim) but of IDF targetting civilians. And I would like the blog writers to supply if possile, from their own witnessing.
(Lastly, I will have problems accepting testimony from you as you seem a bit too antisematic for a jewish person like me to digest. I hope you understand)
It humors me that when someone has an opposing view to someone who happens to go against Israel is branded an anti-semite. By classification I am a semite. So there you are INCORRECT in your simplistic assesment.
What are you when you and other Jews insinuate things about Arabs...youre an anti-semite as well or just a racist. You can pick I can car less.
Actually the link was posted by a Jew named 'Suha"... Look under the blog labelled "Preparing to Evacuate"
double, triple profit? Did you see What 2nd Avenue Deli was paying in rent before it closed? $25K a month. Plus operating expenses. That's a LOT of pastrami sandwiches to sell, dude... I don't know how they stayed in business at all. Must be tough living in such a culturally Jewish city... Ever think of Montreal? I was there the weekend after Israel left south Lebanon a few years back and the parade of vehicles with people waving Hezbollah flags was pretty intense.
Nice RealFreedom. Strap on your boots and deploy to the Motherland, NOW.
Turd.
anonymous....its not tough at all we are allover you just dont know it...on that note..next time you find yourself in the middle of a parade like you described wave an Israeli flag...have a smashing night and a great life...I know you guys arent really too keen in the afterlife :)
Marcel, onward Christian Soldier!
Please go get shot at the nearest possible opportunity.
Jerk.
Facts:
- Israel is the only country which was born by a promise from Britain and a resolution by UN., and planted in an area against the will of the people who live there.
-Most of Israelis citizens came from Russia, Africa, Europe, and US.
-There are millions of refugees scattered in various parts of the word, they are <\b>Palestinians<\b>, and they want to return home, it's basic human right, right?
-Those Palestinians homes happen to be the same ones that the imported jews occupy.
Hey realfreedom:
Aren't jewish girls awesome? They actually enjoy sex because their clits weren't cut off as children - imagine that, a woman that can orgasm! Thank for confirming that all these hateful young Islamic men are actually motivated by their sexual insecurities. Think Nasrallah has ever had good sex without paying some Thai hooker for it?
Try not to fall in love with your passion, although I know you're not at this point. Don't allow yourself to be defined by tragedy, even though I know it's close to you and it's your own. In your heart and mind, if you can, take a step back.
You are very right in everthing you say - Israel has no right to destroy Lebanon the way they are doing right now - there's no excuse. Flexing muscles is one thing, depriving free people of safety is another. Stay focused - be as distant as you can.
I know that this may not make sense to you right now and you may be quite allergic to these words - you're right to fight for democracy, the Constitution, freedom: your fighting the good fight. Just come home with your passion intact so you can lead the free world away from this sin.
Luv ya, brother - keep kicking ass - just get home in one piece to show it to us.
Many Lebanese politicians are running around trying to drum up support(like you) for a war that was started by Hezbollah. No government seems to care, that should tell you something right there. Hezbollah is part of your government, elected to your parliment and operating with the consent of your government and people. YOu are goddamned lucky Israel attacks with precision and at military targets rather than launching hundreds of unguided rockets into Lebanon. How would you like that? I feel sorry for your civilian population, I really do, they lack the power to change the circumstances, but Israel cannot be expected to take an unlimited amount of attacks. I also agree with their policy of demanding, in addition to their kidnapped soldiers, a disarming of Hezbollah. Why should they leave them there to attack at will in the future?
Lebanon Profile: take care, stay safe, and disregard the comments born of ignorance. My thoughts, and I think those of a lot of Americans, are with the people on both sides who have tried to do what's right, and are now paying the price for other people's mistakes, including, as you say, ours.
"And you expect me to fight Hezbollah, when I've already done all of this?"
Yup. Because no one else is going to do it for you. You appear to want to blame everyone in the world but yourselves. Or worse, you want to argue it's "Not fair!".
No shit. Life isn't fair. Many of us hope and pray you get the freedom you deserve and fight for, but sitting there insulting everyone else in the world because they haven't had to suffer what you have doesn't make you better or more righteous.
Good luck and fuck you.
It's truly tragic to see Lebanon falling apart....again. It's awful to see civilians in Lebanon die unnecessarily because Hezbollah's decided to invade Israel and kidnap IDF soldiers. It's all bad.
There is however, one thing I hope ALL Lebanese understand, because it is what Hezbollah by their actions is telling all of you. By kidnapping two IDF soldiers and plunging the country into war, Lebanon's beloved Hezbollah wants you all to know that two Israeli lives are worth MORE than death and destruction of ALL Lebanese.
They knew their action would force Israel to react. They knew Israel would by forced to inflict pain on the whole country, yet Hezbollah kidnapped two soldiers anyway. I always hear from my Arab friends frustrated about the "Palestinian" issue, tell me how unfair it is that the world values a Jewish life so much more than a Palestinian life. "How many deaths have the Palestinians inflicted on the Jews? How many more deaths have the Jews inflicted on the Palestinians? Well, it seems that whatever your feelings are regarding the these questions, you should all know by now what your OWN people think. That's right, does Hezbollah place more value on your life than that of the Jews? The fact that Hezbollah would rather see the Lebanese suffer and die rather than return those two individual soldiers tells us everything we need to know. That's right my friend, EVEN HEZBOLLAH THINKS A JEWS LIFE IS WORTH MORE THAN YOURS! Think about that. Now who do you want to fight?
[...]Is this not enough for you? What the hell more were we supposed to do? Honestly, what more?[...]
Lebanon, see it as it is. The real point is not how often you and the other good men have braved the enemy, or what kind of efforts you undertook. The real point is whether or not you succeeded. You did not. That wasn't your fault though - it's just the way this world spins. You win some, you lose some. Maybe you didn't realize that you had in fact another enemy besides Hezbollah, which was time. There were also some Germans fighting Hitler (another one who wanted to exterminate the Jews), but they didn't succeed either. Because of them, should the world have stood aside idly, too? How much time is enough time? Israel has done her part. She pulled out of Lebanon and of Gaza, with the world telling them in "make-believe" that the occupation was reason for the hatred. But the hatred didn't stop. And you and multiple others couldn't stop it either. Because your other "friends" want to see Israel destroyed and are living the hatred. So now the price will be payed. The only ones responsible for the current situation are Hezbollah and her allies, which include your "friends" who sympathize with Hezbollah. If you want to hear some advise: Just leave this mess. The world is bigger than Lebanon. Some people just don't fit into some countries and never will. I know that.
Regards
Alex N.
thank you so much for your perspective! there are people around the world that don't have to be told that this israeli aggression is way far out of hand. it is an atrocity.
my wishes for your safety and peace. i hope you are right that this has united lebanese and some power comes from it for you. i also pray for a world that will not let this go on.
Realfreedom, NYers hate you and your jihadist friends. We are on to you, in a big way. I am a Christian but I know you and your kind. You are jealous of the Jews, always have been and I am just so happy to know that the jealousy eats you up inside every night. Sweet dreams.
anyone who knowingly hides a terrorist in his home and then complains when his he is caught in the crossfire has a hard time earning my sympathy an ignorant infidel
Hmmm,.. but now you got your help, why doesn't the Lebanese govenrment use this opportunity? Perhaps because theyre divided themselves?
When Israel was founded. It's military force was devided between different groups (one of them was called the Etzel). Ben Gurion, the first prime minister understood that a country can have only one army. He ordered the idf to bomb a ship delivering arms to the Etzel. 16 Etzel members were killed. The Etzel was disarmed.
Where is the Lebanese Ben Gurion?
@ron, nice and interesting comments. That realfreedom cannot answer your questions is not a surprise to me. Hopefully someone else will be able to.
Dear brothers of the MidEast:
use the pain and suffering to transform your situation into a better one.
This is a war between Muslim fanatics who want to gain power
and believe that the world should be Muslim and the whole rest of the world.
don't blame Israel, they really want to live in peace and in good neighborhood with the Arabs around.
Do the Arabs want them here?
or just fantasizing and masturbating over the dream and illusion to destroy the Israelis.
Don't support terror and fanatics
Don't start with a war and then cry like little babies.
the Muslims are good in crying you can see it in all of their movies.
But this is not a movie, this is reality and can be the end for all of us in a minute with a bomb.
Thank to all of those who are in NY now and are putting more oil to the fire.....
Let us talk about love and peace over the net, this is our revolution, the people who know to write and read and think ( i hope)
and from the net we will carry it away to our people in both sides.
one thing is clear, our politicians are very much aware of all that is being written over the internet.
Love to all of my bothers in the Middle East.
my pain and sorrow for all the dead and wounded in both sides.
LET THERE BE PEACE
just to add to what i've writing right now-
it is wrong for me to say between whom this war is and say something about the muslims.
it can be my conditioned mind and what my politicians are telling me.
it's not time to find who is better and who is worse.
we, the people should starve for peace and respect among us.
let's win the Devil among us.
this is so sad for so many people right now.
I am an American who voted for Bush in 2004 but now I cannot stand George Bush and the Republicans because they voted for the IMBRA Law that says Americans don't have the right to meet foreigners (look it up on Google).
But it isn't Bush who is to blame for the fact that this poster thought he was "making progress" by talking to his Hezbollah buddies and making them *start* to see Israelis as human beings.
That was one of the most naive and surreal postings I have ever seen.
How much time was the world, especially Israel, supposed to give to YOU to work your left-wing pacifist magic on your conservative Muslim "friends"?
Don't you know that pacifism and leftism does not WORK on conservatives who consider the former to be something they grew out of in childhood? I respect Hezbollah leaders enough to know that they already TRIED being leftists but that didn't destroy Israel as they wanted. Even if you and I disagree that leftism is childish, please understand that right wing people (Republicans, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al Qaeda, Nazis) firmly believe that it is childish.
You are not going to talk such people into anything using leftist logic. You can only influence them by appealing realistically to their self interest (but saying "nobody likes you anymore because you bombed us" is not scientific or historically relevant - I just made friends with a Serbian man yesterday who said "so what" when I asked him if he had a problem that I was in the US military when we bombed Serbia).
When you comment on right-wingers being "ignorant"...aim the comment first on the right-wing Hezbollah people in the apartment UNDERNEATH your apartment.
You are literally complaining that the apartment that YOU rented is above that of a possible Iranian agent...which means the world should leave it up to YOU to exchange pleasantries with this guy in the elevator where you've probably said EVERY DAY to him things like "Nice weather we're having. I have some Israeli friends who are planning a boat trip on the Sea of Galilee next week. They're so human and nice."
I don't believe for a SECOND that the poster often tried to say nice things about Israelis to his Hezbollah "friends."
So we are not just getting a pacifist left-wing point of view ("you right-wingers should have given us all the time in the world to pacify these guys")...we are getting an outright untruth about the poster really doing much of ANYTHING at all to pacify the terrorists and make them see Israelis as human.
Lots of Germans try to say now that they tried to make the Nazis see Jews as human.
Look at the comment about sometimes people needing to support terror groups when everything has been taken from them and they are desperate!
These comments are pro-Hezbollah whether you say they are or not.
And that is how you got into the mess.
German civilians were not only caught in a crossfire in WW2...they largely sympathized with the Nazis. And this blog shows sympathy for Hezbollah implying that you were "making progress."
It will be suicidal if the anti-Syrian Lebanese end up sympathizing with and helping Hezbollah.
But I am sure that anti-Hezbollah Lebs with guts are now helping the Israelis aim properly.
I am half Lebanese from my dad's side. I have family living in Lebanon and actually my sister who is a US citizen is over there on "vacation" right now with her family. They are trapped and surrounded. They are also in the village, but Israel has bombed about 8 miles from them several times. I am very worried for my family's safety as for the safety of the entire BEAUTIFUL country of Lebanon. I completely agree with everything you've said which is why today I will be protesting against Israel's actions today. I have said this before and I will say it again... FREE LEBANON, ISRAEL CEASE FIRE!
You brought this on yourselves.
You harbored terrorists. That makes you a terrorist state. Instead of taking up arms like men and ridding your nation of the terroists, you wrung your hands and whined as you do here, like women or Frenchmen, and the result is what you are now experiencing.
If Israel has to bomb every inch of Lebanon into molten glass to rid it of the cockroaches, so be it. When you did not rid your own nation of them, you lost all right to complain.
How about your grow some testicles and act like men instead of French pussyboys and do something about the scum, instead of whining like a bunch of women?
You lie down with dogs you get fleas.
You ignore an infected leg it gets worse to the point where it needs to get cut off.
You fail to clean a room, it gets worse and worse until it takes days of effort.
If would be very nice if it was not necessary for Israel to take out Hezbollah. It would be very nice if Arab states could concentrate on making life better for their own people instead of spending more than half a century obcessing over jews in their midst.
That is not the reality. It's like having drug dealers in the neighborhood, it is dangerous to confront them, but if it isn't done early it becomes their neighborhood and you live in fear, like rabbits eating in a meadow full of snares.
I hope you and yours stay safe, but I know that if you can't or won't break the back of Hezbollah Israel somebody will have to do it for you. A lot of Frenchmen were killed in the Invasion of Normandy, should the Allies let the Germans stay?
The situtation stinks, War generally stinks but that's the way it is. The time has come to choose sides. I've made my choice, you have to make yours.
Not really going to bother reading the rest of the comments. You and others have convinced me that Israel is taking the wrong approach by attacking all of Lebanon instead of specifically invading hezbollahland. I'm sorry about all the idiots that are calling you whiny. Agree or disagree, you are there living in this and we're not.
Israel can't easily go it alone with Syria, and can't go it alone at all with Iran. I am starting to see a trap here, set by Ahmadinejad to carry out his goal of destroying Israel (which most westerners have thought was just BS for domestic consumption)
The US will have to go to war with Iran before this is over. Have faith, friend. Some of us will yet take off our pajamas and put on a uniform.
A hand for peace
I read your post and it touched me. I am writing from Israel, between calls from my friends trapped in Shelters in Haifa and pictures of destruction in Beirut, and I think how senseless it all is. How it could have been much simpler. How for some reason, the Israeli government (which I didn't vote for) decided that instead of hitting Hizbullah, they'll hit Lebanon in order that it would do the dirty job. This stupid mistake is costing more and more lives as we speak, and will only result in making enemies out of pro-Israeli Lebanese such as you and your friends.
And even if there was some 'justification' in preasuring Lebanon into fighting Hizbullah, it faded completely when Siniora offered the ceas-fire. I was out of my wits when I heard that the Israeli government is rejecting the cease-fire. I was appalled and angry. I was shocked that Olmert was saying 'No' to the Lebanese governents offer for peace, and 'Yes' to Nassrallah's 'open war'. In short: Israel is justified in fighting back, but right now it seems that waht Israel is doing is intentional escalation of the war, and that is both stupid and despicable.
I also agree at you finger, pointed at the U. S. and the international community. It is them that should have taken care of Hiz' and Syria in time, and not waited for Lebanon, or even for Israel, to do it.
Last but not least, I am shocked and ashamed at some voice heard on Israeli talkbacks, which blame the Israeli government of *not doing enough* against Lebanon! These people have gone to suggest things such as intentionally bombing whole civilian neighbourhoods for no reason, "sending Lebanon into the stone age" and even using nuclear weapons.... some peopl have gone off their rocker completely.
But I tell you to keep the faith. To believe that there are many people in Israel who hate the Hiz' but are sympathetiv to the Lebanese; Who ache for the people in Haifa and Safed but also feel pain at the dextruction in Tyre and beirut; and who know Israel has a right to defend herself, but know also that it doens't justify a hot-headed attack of everything in site, and that "fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity".
So, in the name of those people, I extend my hand in peace and hope to convince you that there is still hope for a peaceful Israeli-Lebanese relationship.
Yours,
Nunnin, Israel
With regard to Realfreedom: I have noticed something peculiar in quite a number of arab responses to various blogs in the last few days. They seem to see this issue as having something to do with sexual prowess vs. the appearance of being homosexual. "I'm going to go fuck my Jewish girlfriend. She swallows". Like that is some kind of humiliation. Or ( in a different place) "what do these Israelis expect us to do, bend over and spread our cheeks?".
This is really primitive stuff, folks. Realfreedoms antisemitism pales in the face of this kind of weirdness.
Realfreedom, you seem to be the one who sees things in a simple way. You recycle the same comments wrapped in in different packaging. While you may call my comments "quaint" the simple fact is you sit here defending a regieme that allows terrorists to cross their borders aand attck a soverign nation. If you call that forever free, I would hate to see what you call oppresion. The fact is you live in denial. You have a pipe dream of Lebanon that keeps going out of focus, and it requires your personal denial to strengthen it. Quite sad really. You think my "love it or leave it" viewpoint is simplistic but often the truth is. You sit here pontificating about what is happening,yet you make no move to change things. You are like so many of the talk radio gasbags, much noise, but no action. Change it. Help make it better. I personally would love to wake up to a world that would follow,as "simplistic" as it is, Churchills advice that "Jaw, Jaw is better than War, War" but even Churchill knew when talk would not help and action is required. I hope you can see that this seems to be Lebanon acting as a shield for the hatred of terrorists. Clean out the vipers in your own yard first.
What a whining screed you write here. Blame someone else - the Israelis, the US, the feckless UN, even some other guy behind the tree. Lebanon has been supine with terrorists for almost 40 years. Israel really should have killed Arafat when they had him cornered in Beruit. Unfortunately you have made your bed. If you can't clean it up then Israel and probably the US will have to do it for you. Being from Texas - we take care of our own business. I guess the Lebanese have a very high inter-marriage rate with the French/Europeans. Like the Normandy beaches, the blood of AMERICAN soldiers from half the world away will be shed before it is over to clean up your sorry mess.
PS - If Bush was really a man, he would send Marines to the US State Department and kill about 2/3rds of the calculating Appeasors that do not represent the US's interest and have no spine to take the action required. Of course that is their career - if they clean things up - they won't have the opportunity to fly around and harumph and be 'big man' in dealing with the the next 'crisis'.
I suspect Bush has the cojones to take care of Syria and help the Iranian people kill off their Nazi-mullahs. Otherwise Lebanon will be dealing with a lot of nuclear fallout too, if things continue on as they are now.
LPJ, I think you're overheated in your criticism of Israel. Hezbollah is firing rockets indiscriminately toward Israeli towns while the Israelis are carefully targeting their bombs and shells.
They are laying the groundwork for a land invasion of southern Lebanon. They are interdicting supply and escpape routes for Hezbollah. If Hezbollah makes a stand in southern Lebanon it will be harder for them to get resupplied by Syria. If they try to bug out it will reduce the number that get away. My guess is that in high intensity conventional warfare, the IDF will chew Hezbollah to bits and the remnants will flee to north of Beirut to regroup following the eventual ceasefire.
This is actually a good thing for Lebanese liberals. It will be far easier to disarm a depleted Hezbollah. I don't condemn the Saniora government for failing to disarm Hezbollah but you shouldn't condemn Israel for defanging them. I expect that post war Lebanon will receive foreign aid to rebuild the infrastructure destroyed so the real costs will be in human and communal terms. It's hard to see how Lebanon doesn't get a net benefit from a weakened Hezbollah. They would never have disarmed voluntarily. Without their weapons, they are just a minority party in a small country, with no real prospects of becoming the majority through fair elections.
My guess is that an Israeli ground invasion of Lebanon will begin within a few days. The outcome will be Hezbollah fighters running for their lives. Some will got to Iraq and fight with Moqtada Sadr's militia. Casualties will be 4-500 Israeli's including civilians, 7-8,000 Hezbollah fighters, and 2-3,000 Lebanese civilians. If Hezbollah or their allies have WMD, Israeli losses will be higher. Given that Lebanon is better off without the Hezbollah fighters and the civilian losses are less than you'd get in a civil war sparked by trying to disarm Hezbollah, you should be thanking Israel.
Related thought: this would be an excellent time for the Iraqi government to crack down on the Mahdi army, before Sheik Fadlallah sends more Hezbollah fighters to help Mookie and annoy the Americans.
To our host: We could all wish that you could have been more effective even sooner. I think, however, that even as you were having the desired effect, Hizbollah realized what was happening and took steps to counter it by kidnapping the soldiers. Because Hizb has military power and you do not, they forced the issue so they could remain on top politically, and I don't see why, if Israel didn't respond in force, they wouldn't have succeeded already.
So everything you did was brave and just, but out of your power to accomplish.
I presume when you write about "trusting Israel" you mean that you trusted Israel not to materially hurt Lebanese who bear no ill will towards the country. See my comments here.
Right now, however, the question is, With whom do you ally? If you choose the side of the U.N., U.S., and Israel, then I'd like to think you can trust the Israelis to stand with you until Hizbullah is reduced in power considerably; besides, only by opposing Hizb and Syria is there any hope of eliminating the death squads you fear.
If you choose otherwise, however...well, as long as Lebanese still celebrate attacks upon Israelis, civilian or military, I think the bombs will continue to drop, but not as accurately as they would be if guided by the Lebanese government and Army. And there will little hope of escaping the Hizb-Syria-Iran noose afterwards.
Israel is NOT justified at all. I am sorry this is happening and even though I have been ashamed of my country for a long time (U.S.A.), I am so angry that they will support Israel with such blindness. I'm an Arab too (My family is from Iraq) and I have heard from my family who still lives there. I was supposed to go to Lebanon this summer but I guess that won't be happening. I feel terrible about all this and some of these somments people leave for you are so absurd!
Let's consider Syria. I agree with you, the US should have attacked Syria a long time ago.
However.
From what you wrote in this post, it sounds like you're a fan of the "liberals". You know, those people who hate the US, or George Bush, moer than they love any principle, and so have been doing their best to obstruct the US War on Terror, and make our fight in Iraq more difficult.
Is tat a correct inferrence on my part?
When people do things to try to make life more difficult for the Bush Administration, do you condemn them? Do you say "Hey, we need a powerful US to fight the bad guys, stop attacking US power!"
Because IMHO the reason we haven't done to Syria what we did in Iraq, despite hte many provacations Syria has given us, is because we've received such strong resistance to our doing good in Iraq. Resistance from teh "liberals", who by every principle they claim to believe in shoudl be supporting us against the terrorists, but who, instead, are doing everything they can to support the terrorists against us.
If you've spent the last three years railing against such people, great! I'll take everything I've said back.
But if you haven't, you have absolutely no justification for complaining about us not taking out Syria. Because you're one of the reasons why we haven't.
You are a good man. You probably did your best. But you lost. Hizballah won this round, and now everybody is paying for this.
Move over. May be Israel will fix them.
I've had enough of Israel. Whatever happens, I hope a few more rockets land in Haifa -- the pain will do them good. (And if anyone thinks that's extreme, it is exactly what they think about Lebanon.)
> Israel has done her part.
> Lebanon has been supine with terrorists for 40 years.
Yeah, right. For 40 years Israel has oppressed the Palestinians in the territories, holding them in military rule with no movement toward giving them citizenship or sovereignty. "The only democracy in the Middle East" has 1/3 of its de facto population who have no control over their borders, movement, or economy. The sin is Israel's, and "terror" (I am a freedom fighter, you are a guerilla, he/she/it is a terrorist) is the fruit, which Israel will reap as long as it holds 3 million people in subjection.
I'm Israeli.
I support my country and my army and believe they are just ,but still
I understand your pain, the fear of getting bombed, and the anger for your beautiful country being ruined.
We are spending the last 100 years here in the same situation, we know the feeling.
The Palestinians kidnapped a soldier and couldn’t get themselves out of the mess they created.
So Nassralla came to their aid. If he would have killed those soldiers and left their bodies on the spot, non of what you are going through today would have happen, as sorry as I would have been for the lives of the soldiers I know (and I bet you too) that all Israel would have do to retaliate is to bomb a few Hezbollah posts.
But for nasrralla that would have amounted to nothing, world attention would get back
Immediate to Palestinians kidnappers, Iranian nuclear weapons or Syrian crime murdering your prime minister.
So He had to take them, that’s the chess game he plays with Israel.
He didn’t ask you or your government he abides to laws of outsiders.
So nasraalala knowingly sacrificed Lebanon for motives of other countries.
That’s the exact definition of a traitor to one’s country.
I’m sure he didn’t think for a minute that the thick headed Israelis will let another soldier be tortured in Iranian jail cell for 20 years (like Ron Arad).
I understand that you are fighting for a similar cause not for my benefit but for the benefit of your own country and I truly admire that, I truly wish you and your fellow Lebanese find your freedom and peace.
But the fact you were trying to get them out is not enough.
I’m truly sad that this is the way things have unfolded and I truly wish peace on your side of the border (hoping that will allow peace on mine) but we want our kids back, we will not rest until we get them.
The Lebanese Samir koontar killed an entire family. He smashed a 4 years old girl face to a rock. He is not in jail because we like having Muslims in jail. He is a murderer. He can’t be freed before his sentence is done (523 years to go). Kidnapping Israelis in order to use then as currency for prisoner exchange have worked for Hezbollah in the past, it can’t work anymore.
Please understand we can’t allow that because tomorrow another person will cross the border to shoot someone and the next day another soldier will be kidnapped in order to exchange him.
I sincerely wish peace for my country, for my brothers and sisters, for you and your fellow Lebanese.
"Israel was going to help prove that they would not abide with Hezbollah's weapons and wouldn't let Hezbollah continue spreading the stupid myth that they can protect Lebanon"
Isn't that what Israel is doing? Proving to the Lebanese that Hizballah cannot protect you?
I'm an Israeli. I feel genuine sorrow for the deaths of innocents, but from where I'm standing, it's really hard to tell who are the innocents and who are collaborators with Hizballah. I don't agree with all my country is doing, but I agree with the general sentiment. I think Israel should have reached out to Lebanon and offered help in serving our joint interest of getting rid of Hizballah. But I doubt if Lebanon would've taken our outreached hand.
When Nasralla is telling you that they've been targeting only military objectives, he's lying. I know it's not his custom, but he is. They've been attacking nothing but civilian targets (except for the ship that was hit). Their rockets aren't accurate enough to try and hit something as small as a military base anyway.
When they're saying we've been killing only civilians, that's a lie. What's stopping them from calling every Hizballah soldier a civilian? What's stopping them from denying that any of the their men have died? It serves their interests to hide any casualties to their forces. But you and I know they've been hit quite badly.
Israel and Lebanon should have been sister-states. Two lone democracies in this ocean of oppression. Remember when we came into Lebanon in 1982? Hell, they threw rice at our soldiers to greet them. We should've made a pact there and then. We didn't. Dire mistakes were made by both sides.
Six years Israeli has not attacked in Lebanon, despite constant attempts by Hizballah to agitate us. Six years Lebanon has never once showed in interest in putting an end to the hostilities with us. After the Syrians were pushed out unceremoniously I truly believed you would turn to make peace with us. But that never came.
I'm not blaming Lebanon or the Lebanese. The Hizballah has a grip on you that's hard to loosen. But people like should be working to fight off the Hizballah while we, on this side of the border, fight to limit the attacks to Hizballah targets and Hizballah supporters only. They should be the enemy, for both of us. For both our sakes.
LP I share your anger and frustration.
http://egyptianobserver.blogspot.com
for recent articles and perspectives on the situation from an Egyptian/Jordanian/Palestinian standpoint.
LP,
Firstly, thank you very much for all of the inspired work you've done. I'm not talking about the writing, I'm talking about reaching out to change people's hearts and minds there in Lebanon, risking your life's blood to move your nation down the path of peace. I sympathize with your anger and frustration towards arm-chair readers who've never lived in a war zone, never lost loved ones, never risked a hair on their own heads. I lived in Jerusalem during the height of the last itifada. My bus was blown up twice, people I rode with everyday were killed. I keep a shard of glass in my jewelry box, from a window blow out by a suicide bomber in Zion sqaure. I've counted drops of blood on white stone, left by strangers. I've seen photographs of people I knew, faces on memorial posters above lit candles and flowers, marking the spot where they were murdered. YES, people, MURDERED. My heart breaks with yours, LP. And to all of you arm-chair critics: SHUT THE F*CK UP. Be humble enough to learn from people on the ground in hot zones. They (we) know something you CAN NOT know.
Dee:
What exactly is it that you know that we don't?
LP -
1) I would never criticize your sentiment on the current campaign critical or not of Israel. I respect you and your reasonableness.
2) I would expect Assad to engineer this with Hezbollah and Iran. How better to subdue the moderates then to get them to flee and/or hate Israel while having Israel destroy the infrastructure.
3) The real problem is Europe and the UN or EU one in the same. If the US and Israel knew that they would condemn strongly Syria, Iran and Hezbollah and force economic sanctions on them, the US would have forced Israel to wait.......... but in the end the ONLY THING they can do is bloviate like on Sudan, and act swiftly whenever they feel appropriate to condemn Israel.
This whole entire thing sucks and the only losers are Israel and Lebanon.......... and the only winners are Syria and Iran.
I imagine the Israelis don't have much confidence in the end that the alternate Lebanese power players would truly assist them in defeating Hezbollah... they likely feel where it counts Syrian and Hezbollah agents are all over the important power stations in Lebanon....
Thus, Syria played this disgusting/cynical game adroitly at your expense.
Mike
And in the end that's the bottom line.
If Olmert went on Israeli television and appealed publically beforehand to the Lebanese people what do you think would have happened?
Would anyone have publically come out? Of course not.... and anyone that did would have been risking their heads......... that's just the way it is - right or wrong.
Syria and Hezbollah understands Arab Israeli politics in the end when tested it boils down to the blood and water litmus test.
And any Arab that crosses that border pays for it afterwards because the Islamist and Pan Arabists have bigger weapons - militarily and on a propoganda basis.
Mike
Thank you for writing this.
As I wrote in another thread, I cannot imagine being in this situation. But I have relatives who were, and I remember what they say about the horrors of being a refugee, or of being in a war.
My relatives said some small but lasting part of the horror was seeing everyone else turn away. That observers would act as if the refugees were different than other ordinary people, as if the refugees were somehow culpable. That is, the observers were searching for excuses to ignore individuals, to treat individuals as if they were illustrations.
You write about becoming a refugee, and in return you get lectures. You write about life now- what has happened, what is happening- and you get lectures about alternate history stories (fictions of what could have happened).
To Americans here- have you seen pictures of protesters at funerals? Do you think that during the highly visible moments of an individual's troubles is ever the right time to get on a soapbox? Do you think that lecturing on your theories is going to help?
Here we go again.If Isreal is so bent on living in peace, why are they so bent on killing innocent civilians? I have been watching the middle east fiasco for thirty years and it seems like every time a jewish soldier is harmed Isreal lashes out at the arab general population. I suppose Isreal learned well from the nazies when they invaded the Balkins and Greece and used collective punishment against the average citizens. I am an American and I can tell you there is a grass roots feeling going on around here that people here are tired of Isreal brutializing the Palistinians and the Lebeanese people. Remember Isreal, if you loose the support of the American people you are done. I would suggest, if you really want peace, then stop murdering and maiming innocents.
Bless you... You took the words out of my mouth.
It is through people like you that I believe we will be able to take Lebanon to better future... Thank you!
Great post. Nothing to regret having said in this. And a very welcome eye opener.
I was in Lebanon in 1982, 1983, 1984 ... on Oct 23, 1983 HIZBOALLAH drove truck in the Marine compound killing 241 American service men. THEY ARE TERRORIST! I lost a lot of freinds that day, Lebanon has done nothing to get rid of them, they have embraced them in many areas, and they say Lebanon is a innocent victims? I have many Lebaneses freinds, I have many Israeli freinds. No one is truely innocent in war, war steals innocents. Lebanon needs to pick side and take ownership of their country. If they pick the side of Hizboallah, I fear they will have picked the wrong side and Israel will increase their actions and more will suffer.
Has Israel overreacted? Maybe, has the rest of Lebanese government sat on their hands, most assured they have and continue to do so. Thay are letting a marginal faction of Hizloallah run the show, and it has and will cost them. I do not understand that?
There was a UN resolution to disarm Hizboallah, clearly this wasn't done, or even attempted. Now we're suppose to say well gee, they're all so innocent there was nothing they could do. There was and they failed to do it.
But, it's not the UN's job to solve this problem, it's not the US's, it's not the EU's, it's not the AL's, it's not even Syria's job it is Lebanon's job. I fear they will do nothing or pick the wrong side. It is very sad.
I do hope you are safe and I hope my many freind there are safe, I would like to see this come to a quick end as Beirut and Lebanon is a beautiful country with many wonderful people. But I fear that if Hizbollah is not stopped and totally disarmed it will not end soon and Lebanon will become yet again another battle ground.
Why can't Israel, Syria and Iran leave beautiful Lebanon alone to enjoy peace? The Lebanese people have suffered and lost so much because of these bully coward states.
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