A Rant. As I've said, what does Israel realistically hope to accomplish?
I'm serious in asking this question. If Israel isn't wrong right now, when will the US, the international community, the rest of the world, and Israelis ever admit that Israel does horribly atrocious things?
This is hyperbole. I know there are many Israelis who question their government, etc., etc., so on and so forth.
Most of the Israelis seem to say, "We don't want civilians killed, but we think that what our government is doing is good. It is decreasing the power of Hezbollah." Well, that government is killing civilians and increasing Hezbollah's power. Never before has Hezbollah experienced the amount of support it has after the Qana massacre. Not even during Israel's occupation.
The Lebanese government is powerless. The Lebanese people are powerless (quite literally, in fact).
Don't try and tell me that the Lebanese government was powerless before. Oh, yes, it was weak. But powerless? Definitely not. If it was powerless before, then what is it now? A black hole?
Israel is asking Lebanese to turn against Hezbollah. You know, we were already against Hezbollah. Anybody who's read a Lebanese newspaper in the last two years would know that. We were even more vocal in our opposition to Hezbollah during the first two days of the conflict. Many Hezbollah supporters considered turning against their party then.
No one is talking like that any more.
Hezbollah has already declared that it's won this battle. In fact, it has. Because Israel is not going to stick around to clean up the damage. Hezbollah comes out of this more powerful than ever before. They've effectively mounted a coup using Israel to assassinate the government, since Syria was so ineffective in doing so. They're so sure they've won that they've already threatened every Lebanese who spoke out against them during the first few days of this conflict.
You see, it's really simple. Israel kills Lebanese. Hezbollah doesn't. In fact, Hezbollah didn't kill that many Israelis before this conflict started. Was it all that much more than an existential threat? We're in all out war, and look what Hezbollah can do. Nothing compared to what Israel is inflicting on Lebanon.
If one asks most Lebanese today what they think should be done, they don't want a cease fire. They want proportional response, but not in the way you may be thinking. If Israel gets to destroy Lebanon, Lebanon should get to do the same to Israel. Olmert's apologies appeal to very few. Lebanese are currently thinking in Ariel Sharon's terms, the man who said, "Blood for blood; soul for soul."
Israelis bring themselves down every time they try to play their trump card. Lebanese don't want genocide. They don't want the destruction of the Israeli state. They merely want to do the same thing to Israel that Israel has done to Lebanon. That's the Lebanese mind. If he slaps you, you get to slap him. If you're going to put to death a Maronite, you must also kill a Sunni and Shia. That's the way people think.
Most Lebanese were angrier at Syria than Israel before this conflict. Most thought it was a joke that politicians kept saying, "We agree that Israel is the enemy."
Israel made itself Lebanon's enemy. Not the other way around.
Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Why didn't they stop? Why?
As I said before, nothing good will come of this. Little did I know that things could get even worse. Israel was just making headway with Arabs. Peace truly was closer than ever (and if you haven't visited the Middle East, talked with the people and regimes, and seen the dynamics, you shouldn't even think about commenting on this point). Arabs had united against Iran and Syria.
Who's scarier now?
Civilian deaths are horrible. Sometimes innocent people must die for a greater good. But what makes them even worse is when nothing is accomplished. What did they die for?
Most likely, they will have died for the overthrow of the democratically elected Lebanese government.
Thanks, Israel. Hezbollah now runs Lebanon. You committed their coup for them.
We're tired of hating. We hated Syria for a long time. We thought that you, Israel, were going to leave us alone. You were in a different category.
Now, you're hated more than Syria. Has Syria ever done anything this bad?
So, how can we hate Syria with such vigor any more? We can't.
Everyone else hates you. I can't. I want to, but I can't. I want to understand you. I really, really do. I don't want to hate you. I've met far too many good Israelis online.
In the back of my mind there is a question: Does Israel really want peace?
Monday, July 31, 2006
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Imagine that it is 10 months from now. There has been mostly peace during that time. Will the Lebanese population still encourage Hezbollah to launch rockets across the border?
Offhand, I don't think so. I think they are upset at Israel today, but it will pass. I don't think goodwill matters much, since Israel never had much to begin with.
After 10 months of peace, Hezbollah will not launch a little kidnapping raid into Israel to prove themselves. They now know the consequences. The non-Shiite Lebanese will not continue to support Hezbollah.
It will seem that Israel has lost this war. The Lebanese will proclaim their newfound love for Hezbollah. The Arab states will say that they cannot abide by Israel's actions. Europe will continue with the same anti-Israeli tone...
...but Israel will not be hit by rockets. At the end of the day, that will be the result of this conflict.
It will take a lot longer than 10 months to get past the anger and hate being fostered today. Sad but true.
Good rant, LP. I am afraid that I agree with most of it, or the gist of it. I have been posting here and on other blogs, for over a week now, that Israel's best course of action shoud've been to make their point, strongly and powerfully, and then stop, after week 1.
At that stage, Israel had everything to gain, Lebanon had a lot to gain.
The longer this dragged on, the more it empowered Hezbollah, and the worse the outlook became for Lebanon and for Israel itself.
At this juncture, i hate to sound as pessimisstic as you are. But I'm almost there with you. I don't see how this can be salvaged anymore. All these deaths should've been for something. Now they'll be for nothing. Israel will not be more secure. Lebanon will not be stronger and sovereign. We've all lost.
And somewhere in Damascus and Tehran, a couple of presidents are rubbing their hands in glee and thanking whatever evil force they pray too for offering them such a boon without their having to left a single finger.
I'd like to add a line of thought that's played in my head today.
The Lebanese unity, behind Hezbollah, born out of anger at Israel is, in my mind temporary.
It is born in anger and frustration and in a human-born desire to lash out at whoever is hurting you RIGHT NOW.
I do tend to think that once this is over. However it does end. Our old internal divisions (read sectarian) will resurface, meaner and bigger than ever.
Thoughts?
LP, you are asking the same question many times. Lets say, Israel cannot accomplish all objectives (stop the rockets, get back soldiers and disarm HA), but the damage inflicted on Lebanon will make HA leadership to think twice before crossing the northern border of Israel. Moreover, seven divisions moving toward Litany, yep we are escalating the ground operation. We have bodies of HA officers; we have troops on occupied lands. We have something in hands to negotiate in week or two when the cease fire will be reached. Thus we will accomplish (at least part) our objectives. Now look at this situation from the point of view of Israelis - all these accomplishments make the government right and that’s what counts.
Why does average Israeli has to care about your internal problems? Our cities are shelled and army responded, we pounded Lebanon and goals achieved. What else do we need? We were hated and now we are hated even more, but cities are safe, children back to streets and population is back to north – fine with me. The HA is ruling Lebanon but this HA will not assault Israel couple of years – fine with me. Lebanon is ruined and civilians killed, well, this is a war and these small casualties relatively to the heavy bombardment and actually why do I have to care about your casualties more than ours?
What was done is done. Don’t like it? Everything is in your hands – try harder to avoid such a situation next time.
Well, I guess I failed to express my thoughts clearly…
Regards,
Kreuzerkrieg
I am afraid that you are right. I am watching the conflict from far away (Los Angeles, USA) and can't help the feeling that this war will not do Israel any good. The anger and hate caused by civillian deaths will not just go away. Nasrallah will make damn sure that it won't. He will use every innocent victim's death against Israel. There is no way Israel will eradicate Hizbullah by attacking them with an army. It's like Americans in Vietnam - they had an overwhelming military advantage, but still were unable to win the war. The only way to end the conflict is to build understanding between Arabs and Jews. Make them see that their neighbors are people just like themselves. I know it may seem like an impossible task, but without it the support for extremist organizations will not cease and there will be no peace in the Middle East.
That is what I was suggesting.
I think that any support that Hezbollah has picked up outside of its usual power base is temporary. Perhaps they will increase their hold over the Shiite population, but I'm not sure if they have gained any long term support over this. Furthermore, while they will talk about "defending" against Israel, everyone will remember that Hezbollah started this conflict through their army.
Can Lebanon avoid another civil war over this? I'm not entirely sure. I think that the non-shiite populations are going to be very unhappy with Hezbollah, but, conversely, that the shiites will be even more reluctant to lose their saviors. Thousands have been forced out of their homes, and they will want to feel that it was done for a reason.
Of course, Israel will also feel the same way. They will want to have something substantial to prove the value of this conflict. I think that Israel will mostly get what it wants, the attacks from Hezbollah will stop. I think that Hezbollah will mostly get what it wants as well (power, right to keep its arms). I think that it is the regular Lebanese who will be the big losers here, which is unfortunate.
I sure hope you're wrong, but this is my worry too.
What exactly was Israel supposed to do in the face of 75-100 rockets every day? You fail to deal with that fact. Rockets are being shot into Israeli cities from Lebanon every day. Civilians have died, terrible infrastructure damage has occurred, crops and livestock have gone unattended, and the economic hit will take years to recover from. That more Israeli civilians haven't died is due to them fleeing southwards or taking protective cover. No one prevented the Lebanese civilians from doing either.
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. Do nothing and more rockets are shot. Do something to make it stop and everyone hates us. So we chose the former. At least this way, our children don't live with rockets.
ummmm...i don't know what to say, and how to say it so it won't offend you. maybe i should not say what i want to say. maybe you should still be in denial and continue to rant like a spoiled child. go on, kick you feet, shout and cry that somebody stole your toys...ot, wake up and fight for your life, but i regress. i said i won't go there....
Dear man
Israel is surrounded by the Arab world, few millions surrounded by dozens of millions of mostly Muslim.
So many Arab leaders declare the destruction of Israel and the death of the Jews.
Does the name Iran says something to you? and Sadam Husain? and Mashaal? and many more?
There is one thing Israel must show the Arab world and the rest of the world: if Israel is being attacked by someone, a country or a terror organization, the reply will be deadly, most painful and even total. Can you understand that?
Israel went out of Lebanon and the enemies are saying they have run away, that they are weak.
What the hell has HE to do with Israel? Why they had to make all these provocations?
Israel went out of Gaza, isn't it a declaration of seeking for peace and a place for the Palestinian? It takes time, you have to do it in steps because the Palestinians cannot deal with such a sudden freedom, it turns into anarchy and disaster. That much the whole democratic world can understand. The Arab world knows Israel is seeking for peace.
Why they still shooting everyday bombs on citizens within Israel?
Why not to direct the energy for construction for building your own country, why they go on bombing Israelis and try to make so much terror within Israel?
Why don't you direct your agony and pain and the wish for sanity in the region to your Arab leaders?
To minimize the effect of the fanatics in the Arab world? to start living in the 21 century? to take care of your misery, the poor, the weak, to put all the energy in building your countries, to develop your countries, to learn from Israel how to make a little paradise in a short time.
Here in Israel there are many voices who call for peace, for letting the Palestinian live their own life, who criticize the army and government day in day out, so many organizations who go against war and destruction even if the majority of the country are against them in such days of war, but still they are fighting for peace!!!
Why don't you start having such organizations in the Arab world? Why there was never a demonstration of Arabs for peace, for accepting the right of the Jews and Israelis to live?!?!
Why there was not single voice of an Arab intellectual who say something for peace with Israel, for reconciliation, for sharing the space here in the Middle East?
I suggest you start direct your energy to convincing your people that war is bad and the only way is peace and love and respect among nations. We are doing the same thing here in Israel with our people, even after such big tragedies we have all the time, still we are calling for peace, for understanding, for seeing the normal people in the Arab countries, that not all are barbarians, religious fanatics and blood thirsty.
Stop playing the poor and the suffered; it can work on some of the Europeans but not for long.
After the first terror in their cities they will do the same thing they did in Iraq!! when it's not in their countries they can play the game of the advanced, the democracies, the educated but never forget what the most civilized nation who brought to the world Bach and Mozart and Gutte and Nitche did to the Jews and Gypsies just 60 years back!!!
Don't count on them!!!
You are the majority in the Middle East! Israel is small!
It's time to decide now do you want to have good and normal life in your countries or you want to go on living like cowards full of fears because your fanatic leaders!!!!
We want peace! We want to have just our little Israel! To live here, to create a beautiful place here, to develop science, agriculture, art and be good neighbors.
We want peace or at least that the Arab world will leave us alone to live our life, together with the Palestinian, we will let them have their own place as soon as they drop the idea of destroying us, and having the whole Palestine for themselves, and being empowered by nations like Iran (what do we have with Iran? why they make all these demonstrations calling Death to Israel? and their leaders, and the religious leaders? I believe if there was not Israel they would have invent one just to have the excuse to direct so much anger and hatred toward something and to gain so much power over so many uneducated crowd by blinding them with hate in the name of Allah!!!
Let there be peace among us
Inshaala
Dear Friends,
I have to take you back to the sucess of the Republic of South Africa, where no super powers had no say at all:
I am sure that with some diplomacy Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Hamass and Hizbollah can seat around a table and discuss their own problems in order to resolve all the issues ... They are all humans like me and you!!!
The same way you may see some countries in the region inciting propaganda against Israel, some countris in the region also see in specific USA lunching propaganda against them, and most important using Israel as the scape-goat.
Just reflect for a moment and think very carefully:
Does USA and its allies really worry about democracy in Iraq ???
If you want my opinion I don't think so.
There is an old say: In Rome you nust think like the Romans, in Africa you have to think like the Africans - so, in the middle east you have to think like the people in the region, and is certainly not the way that the USA and its allies think ....
God bless all affected in the region.
thank you so much for your final words. i really needed to hear them, that you can't hate israel. you have all the reason in the world to hate iaf/idf/state of israel. you give me hope when you say that you can't hate israel.
for more good israelis, and stellar lebanese, and some scattered others, have you seen this forum? http://cmc.blackcurranthost.co.uk/community/index.php
"Imagine that it is 10 months from now. There has been mostly peace during that time. Will the Lebanese population still encourage Hezbollah to launch rockets across the border?"
No, they will most likely be working on something much bigger, something they feel would be proportional to all the suffering they are enduring now. Violence begets violence
http://cedarseed.livejournal.com/362610.html
wouldn't it change the HA perception?
It's just this simple. Leave Israel alone, and they will leave Muslims alone. The truth is, Muslims will never leave Jews alone, and as an American citizen, I support whatever they have to do to protect themselves. God bless Israel.
How can you say Lebanon was too weak to stop Hezbollah, yet Hezbollah is much stronger now because it has wider Lebanese support? Lebanon can be impotent or blameless, not both.
You make a big deal out of how much Lebanon was opposed to Hezbollah because it was in the newspaper. I've seen headlines in American papers decrying the Israeli bombing campaign. Have those headlines helped you?
"Hezbollah didn't kill that many Israelis before this conflict started." Easy for you to say. From where I'm sitting, Israel isn't killing many Lebanese.
I completely agree with you.
Let me also add some perspective on what's happening in Egypt. Nasrallah is now being declared the people's hero and the ultimate leader. Hate levels to Israel are at unprecedented levels. It didn't have to be this way.
When are the Israelis ever gonna learn that their military might alone will not guarantee their long-term prospects in this region. They CANNOT survive with collective hatred of hundreds of millions surrounding them. People in Arab countries are now thinking: if that's what Israel will do to Lebanon, when is our turn going to come? Thus, keeping the animosity alive.
Well, if that's true:
The Lebanese government is powerless. The Lebanese people are powerless (quite literally, in fact).
Then who cares about any additional support powerless government and powerless people show to Hezbollah?
Powerless people don't deserve a state anyway so international forces should run Lebanon or may be Lebanon should be just absorbed by Syria - they at least can control their own land.
just a remark that crossed my mind yesterday: the situation is a bit like in a heist: a couple of gansters have robbed a bank and took innocent hostages. the police has surrounded the banks building, and were discussing a long time about the strategy to end the situation. then the gansters start to kill one hostage every hour. the son of the police-chief was killed that way. so the police decides to end this, and blows up the entire building with all the hostages and the gangsters. everybody dies. the police argues: well, we had to do something. now everything is fine, we can all go back to normal live, because we have ended the horrible situation, of course we are sorry about the casualties. but look we got rid of the bastards!
will such a behaviour make the police more credible? would you rely on such a police? would you respect such a police-force? would the relatives of the hostages come to terms with such a solution?I am convinced: such a behaviour would be considered as extremely stupid and unwise and simply generate more unsecurity.
So LP, I am afraid, you are right about your assessments of the current situation. At the end Israel will not be considered as the big brave hero, and in turn HA will get the credits of having pushed the IDF to behave in such an unwise and stupid way.
Why is Israel obligated to care about the opinion of people who hate them? When the Protocols are treated as fact on Egyptian state TV?
Israel's goals in Lebanon are quite different from America's goals in Iraq. The US is attempting to build the Arab world's first viable democracy. Sorry Lebanon isn't a democracy as long as an armed group can in effect make it's own foreign policy.
Israel is trying at a minimum to stop the attacks from Lebanese territory. It is also heightening the contradictions for non-Hezb supporting Lebanese. They will have to choose whether to support disarming Hezb or not. This will most likely require force. Hezb is a bigger problem for Lebanon than Israel so my recommendation is to knock off Nasrallah, Fadlallah etc. It's not as if assassinations aren't a traditional feature of Lebanese politics. If you want to move beyond tribalism and murder, disarm the gunmen in your midst. Then you might get more respect.
you're completely wrong in your analysis. israel will not stop until they utterly defeat hizballah. they cannot afford to - otherwise they will appear as weak, and everybody kicks a weak dog in the middle east. 3 israeli elite brigades amassing at the border will break in, sweep south lebanon, destroy hizballah infrastructure and kill as many terrorists as possible. and then they'll leave.
and when they leave, that will be a chance for the rest of lebanon to put disarmed and weakened hizballah to its place. whether or not you guys will do it, i don't know. but you will definitely have a good chance to, and if you are real men, you will use it.
and if you don't, hizballah will rearm, get some chemical or biological weapons, and will shoot them to israel. they are that crazy. and the next day, israel will have to utterly destroy lebanon, whipe it off the map, and make the place uninhabitable, and nobody would be able to stop them.
these are the choices you're facing. they are not easy ones, but they are entirely yours to make.
chooose well.
My basic stance is that the Lebanese place far too much emphasis on how Israel's actions will affect Lebanese opinion.
The problem is that Lebanese opinion doesn't ever translate into Lebanese action. Lebanon was nowhere near getting serious about disarming Hezbollah before this conflict started, or within the first few days of the conflict. Since that is true, why does Lebanese opinion matter? How will Lebanese opinion make Israel safer if it doesn't translate into concrete steps to confront Hezbollah?
Hezbollah has only gained in military strength since Israel withdrew from the country. Hezbollah has only increased in military prowess relative to the Lebanese Army since 2000. Likely, without Israeli intervention, it would have continued to do so. Hopes of disarming Hezbollah only grew more dim day after day even if opinion against Hezbollah grew more negative.
From an Israeli perspective, your opinion just doesn't mean very much. Since your opinion makes no difference in the end as to whether Hezbollah attacks Israel in the future, why should Israel care about winning the Lebanese people over? What do they have to gain?
Until the Lebanese show some motivation about disarming Hezbollah, Israel has no reason to try and win support among the Lebanese.
The Hezbollah (presents in the Lebanese Parliament!) they have assaulted an adjacent country putting into effect one war total. Therefore their country must be waited for one war total. As the Code renders the parents responsible of the actions of the smaller sons, every country is in charge of the war initiatives in departure from just the territory. And the country of the cedars has indeed one great fortune: it has of forehead a country democratic who has the many scruples ones than how many of it they have the terrorists and their supporters.
I have only one thing to say... The moment Hizballah lays down its arms there will be peace, but the moment Israel lays down its arms there will be genocide. It really is that simple.
Lebanon supports Hezbollah and always did.
1. The Lebanese government gives money to Hezbollah “martyrs” families.
2. Hezbollah has 2 ministers in the Lebenese government.
3. Lebanon admitted they will help Hezbollah in the fighting against the powerful IDF, but say they are powerless against Hezbollah (How does that calculates??)
4. The Lebanese army helped Iranian soldiers and Hezbollah in launching the missile against the IDF ship, using the Lebanese army radars.
5. The Lebanese government (not to mention the people) did nothing to stop the attacks from Lebanon to Israel during the last 6 years. The last kidnapping was far from being the first aggression Lebanon showed towards Israel.
6. There isn’t a single person in Israel (not even the most religious or radical one) that wants to occupy Lebanon. It is not our land, we don’t want anything to do with it, we never did and we will never will. All Israelis want a stable democratic Lebanon living in peace with us – and I mean **ALL** - this is a consensus. Can you claim the same on Lebanese people ?
7. This war is about protecting our homes from thousands of missiles aimed and being fired at our cities, this war is about protecting the safety of our children.
8. We don’t want to hurt your children. Children are sacred, but when rockets are being fired from civilian residence - accidents happens. You should blame the Hezbollah for making this shit happen – they are the ones to blame – It was their wish and intention, in the first place. The reason they are firing rockets from within a civilian population is not to save themselves (they are not cowards) – it is to cause the killing of innocent man women and children and gaining political power from that. That is also the reason they are threatening people from leaving their homes and villages.
9. If the Lebanese people are stupid enough to support a terrorist group. If they want to destroy Israel and kill children in Israel as revenge, if they are happy when they hear our busses explode in our cities – why do you think we should feel empathy to the situation you brought on heads.
10. Do you think Israel hit Lebanon with all it’s force ? Are you joking ? Lebanese has still a lot to loose and if they (and their government) are smart they will not push Israel towards that direction.
11. You hate us? Good for you. We don’t hate you. We are defending our lives.
@poul: why is it that your post sounds as if Israel (or the IDF) is doing a favour to Lebanon? Is this really the case? Did you once try to explain this to the residents of Qana, Beirut, Bint Jebel, Tyre...? Why does this assumption (that Isreael is indeed forcing peace and stability upon Lebanon) sounds a bit weird in my ears? Maybe you see more than I can see, maybe you hear more than I can hear, maybe you can grasp the bright and full picture, and you see for the first time in history the equation: killing=peace+ freedom solved. I am sorry, I can't see this.
This post, with its thesis that a less-than-total-war response only fuels the enemy, sickens me with the thought:
Can Hezbollah only be defeated by the annihilation of Lebannon?
America dropped two nukes on Japan. Just one result: a free Korea.
If the Lebanese were just chess pieces, would Isreal hesitate to pay the price?
If they're just chess pieces to Hezbollah, do we have a choice?
Bad Vilbel is absolutely on the mark - how different things could have been had the Israelis unilaterally called a halt after a few days.
Everyone would have seen they meant business and internal Lebanese dynamics, which as LP said, was fairly anti Hezbollah early on, could have taken its course. Israel would have been acting from a position of strength and could have retained the option of starting up again. Compare that to the pause Rice imposed on them Sunday, done from a position of weakness.
I've seen a fair amount of frothing and spluttering on other blogs about the French once again being up to their old tricks by meeting the Iranians in Beirut. Unfortunately the French have read the situation correctly. It wasn't necessary to get Iran's buy-in a few weeks back, but it is now.
Of course, I'm working from the point of view that a cease fire that incorporates a prisoner deal, an international force on the Lebanese border and a solution to the Shaba Farms is highly desirable. True, if you are one of the total victory / total war brigade, then it really isn't necessary to get anyone's buy-in
And on that point, there are a lot of people here who clearly feel very strongly about Israel. Sorry, but to me supporting Israel means more than just chanting "IDF, IDF" like you are cheering on a team at the World Cup.
It means thinking about the long term consequences about its actions and accepting that it can and does sometimes get it wrong - this being a spectacular case in point.
You would not have the electricity to blog if Israel wanted to destroy you.
No one wants to destroy Lebanon. We want you to live in peace, raise your children, prosper, do good. The only ones seeking to destroy you are Hezbollah and people like them who hide behind your women and children, and blackmail your politicians and render your army incompetent and fill your TV screens with propaganda like this only to inspire more hate and more violence.
Where is your army? How can they let a bunch of rogue terrorists hijack your country and start a war that noone wants? Who raised such men and women who will not even protect their own people against thugs like Hezbollah?
You are not impotent. You render yourself impotent the minute you begin to believe their lies and succumb to their hate and teach your children to do the same.
Stand up my friend, keep standing up for Lebanon. There are many many all around the world ready to stand with you. Many many many more than Hezbollah and their ilk. It will not be easy. There will be many more dark nights ahead. But you must not lose hope, and you must not give in to fear or hate. But you must stand up. And we will stand with you.
Australia
" what does Israel realistically hope to accomplish?"_____Destruction of all the rockets and launchers, destruction of all the bunkers and tunnels near (or under) the border, destruction of the military control centres, prevention of further supplies of rockets coming in from Syria. What Israel is _not_ doing is "sending a message" or "punishing" the people of Lebanon. This campaign is about forcible disarmament. If some of Hezbollah's top military staff get killed too, that will be a bonus from Israel's point of view. ____As for "sending messages" or influencing the media or the "Arab street" - that is what Hezbollah is about, not Israel. The Israelis seem to have little interest in PR, media, presentation, or setting up photo ops.
with all respect, israel isn't claiming that lebanon wants to wipe us out. certainly, we think hezbollah wants to wipe us out, and they do, but everything i have seen in the israeli media, from the press and the official spokesmen, has drawn a careful distinction between hezbollah and the general lebanese population.
now, there may be a disconnect between this and israel's military tactics. in my opinion, this is due to israel's overreliance on air power in the early stages of this operation. this resulted in far higher casualties among the general population. in my opinion, this tactic was chosen because of the legacy of the lebanon war and the fear of becoming bogged down with ground forces. the hope was that air power would be sufficient to degrade hezbollah's capabilities. i think this was a grave tactical mistake, but it was NOT one that was undertaken in order to punish the general lebanese population.
to understand us, i think it is important to understand the depth of our fear. you see us, perhaps, as immensely powerful and strong. we see ourselves, wrongly or rightly, as vulnerable, small, and perpetually threatened. this may be a neurosis, but it is sincere. it is the child of the holocaust, certainly, but not only that. the decades of terrorism and especially the legacy of the yom kippur war are also decisive factors in this collective sense of vulnerability.
israel is not stopping now because it cannot stop. if israel ceases operations now it will be a tactical victory for hezbollah. it may be that the reliance on air power contributed to this situation. i do not deny that israel severely miscalculated hezbollah's strength at the beginning of this conflict. ironically, ariel sharon may not have made the same mistake. both olmert and peretz lack experience as military commanders. sharon may well have read the situation more accurately.
Here is my take on this conflict from the safe and cozy confines of my Pennsylvania home:
1) The Lebanese were never really going to take care of Hezbollah. They are still traumatized from their civil war and the idea of actually having to spill blood, including a lot of their own, to disarm a terrorist organization was too scary for them.
2) The Lebanese were hoping that Israel would actually do their dirty work for them and destroy Hezbollah. If the Israelis were actually routing Hezbollah right now, SOME Lebanese would consider all the horrible infrastructure damage to be worth it, as it would give them a real opportunity to grow as a democracy and a nation.
3) Since the Israelis require more time to rout out Hezbollah, and have been outflanked by Hezbollah in the PR wars, many Lebanese see themselves as having had their country's infrastructure destroyed AND still having Hezbollah, which is now emboldened by their ability to take a punch.
4) IMHO the Israelis were never going to be able to truly destroy Hezbollah, since the Israelis are not genocidal maniacs, despite accusations along these lines, since Hezbollah is really the Shia representative. It was silly of the Israelis to describe their mission as destroying Hezbollah.
5) What the Israelis really needed to do was neutralize Hezbollah's threat in the coming months in order to take away a card from the Iranians. This is why the USA is so invested in the IDF putting a hurting on Hezbollah. It's part of a bigger picture. With Hezbollah weakened the Iranians have that much less leverage at the negotiating table over their efforts to develop nuclear arms.
6) Many Lebanese keep commenting that they were the closest thing Israel had to a friend in the neighborhood, but now they are not going to be friends with Israel. Frankly I don't think the Israelis care. With friends like you, who needs enemies. I think the Israelis would prefer to have a neighbor like Assad who they know hates them, but who is smart enough to know it is in his interest to leave them alone.
7) The killing of civillians is a horrible, horrible thing. That being said, it is clear, to this Eagles fan at least, that the Israelis want to do as little of this as possible and Hezbollah wants to do as much of it as possible. That is why when I see these folks in Dearborn holding up signs equating israelis and jews with nazis, I just think those people are ignorant assholes.
8) All this focus on how evil Israel is and how they have destroyed Lebanon is really a diversion from what is most scary to Lebanese: They are going to have to fight each other again. They can hold off for sometime by bonding over the external other, but Israel does not appear to have any interest in occupying Lebanese land and will likely pull its forces out at first opportunity. At that time there will be many upset Lebanese who know that they will be left with each other and accounts will need to be paid. Hezbollah knows this. They are already planning on purging those who oppose them. It will be 1975 all over again. Those Lebanese that can are getting out of the country as fast as possible. From the safe confines of their adopted homes they will rail against the "Zionist enemy," but deep in their hearts they now they are using the Israelis to avoid what they really fear.
9) I for one would like to know how to support those brave Lebanese that are willing to confront Hezbollah. You'll need weapons and money. Many people in the USA, Canada, and Europe will be ready to give you both as quickly as possible. You'll be facing a foe that will be bankrolled and armed by Iran. The Israelis have done you a favor by destroying the channels to bring arms in to Hezbollah. You have a temporary advantage over them right now. I would seriously consider taking advantage of it. If you know you're going to have to fight a guy who is planning on raping your wife, are you going to attack him when he is punchy from another fight or after he has had time to heal up and regain his strength?
10) Take these comments for what they are worth. I don't really have a dog in this fight. You and Hezbollah and the Israelis can fight to until the cows come home and unless it spills into something bigger it won't really affect me. I would, however, like to see Lebanon freed from these Hezbollah tyrants and able to continue on with the Cedar Revolution. It takes sacrifice to do this and so far Hezbollah and Israel seem way more willing to sacrifice than the rest of Lebanon. I hope that this changes. Soon.
I'm afraid you may be right LP.
People like us who were very critical of Hezbo are in a very tough situation today (though I for one have not changed my mind).
I repeat that this mess won't be over before Syria is hit badly enough cuz as some mention here:
Israel is no fool and this mess cannot end with a Hezbo victory. That would a catastrophe for ALL but Iran (maybe a catastrophe for the idiot Syrians too in the long run). Too many powerful interests are involved.
I expect more bad things because our people never learn. Look at all the new idiot blogs that popped up, those who had nothing to say and saw nothing coming before July 12 and are now spouting the usual cliches.
Look at Siniora and the people lauding him now. And I am not talking about his Condi tantrum. He's right on symbolics there, but he only found his missing genitalia when confronting a woman, 3 catastrophes too late?
BTW, the Lebanese gvmnt committed suicide well before this whole thing. Hezbo just pushed the corpse into the grave.
I don't think Israel can continue this campaign and keep inflicting enormous civilian casualties and expect the rest of the world to let it happen. Its sole ally at this point is the US, without US support the world would have ended it long ago. Israel has shown that it cannot follow the international laws regarding warfare, it has no credibility when it says it doesn't intend to harm civilians because it happens over and over again. The IDF is an undisciplined rogue army that doesn't even have a working command structure, so regardless of the what the high command has in mind, individual commanders make fatal decisions as in case of the UN base that was shelled.
Don't fight a war if you can't do it properly! The days of this campaign are counted, and the world will set an end to it.
And after that, Israel, you dear Israeli, will have to pay, really pay, and compensate Lebanon for all the destruction you have caused the country!
We're tired of hating. We hated Syria for a long time. We thought that you, Israel, were going to leave us alone.
And I think Israel thought you and they were at peace, but then an invasion came from your country to theirs, and two of their soldiers are now hostages.
You make some good points, and Lord help me, perhaps you are right that Israel has handled this poorly and only strengthened Hezbollah.
However, you, and by extension Lebanon, are trying to escape responsibility. You had to know Hezbollah was amassing weapons in your country, that they were a force unto their own, a rogue state within a state. You allowed them to operate a terrorist organization in your own country, and they used Lebanon as a staging area for terror. Where was the Lebanese army? Why did they not march to the south and inform Hezbollah they are out of business?
Blaming Israel when it was without a doubt Hezbollah which started the fight is dishonest. If Lebanon was serious, the moment Hezbollah attacked Israel, the Lebanon army should have been mobilized to shut them down as endangering the nation's interests.
You want Israel to act more responsibly? The Lebanon and its people most do so as well.
I sincerely hope that Lebanon is able to throw off the terror masters and takes its rightful place a sovereign and just nation. I hate the death and destruction that is occurring, but it is the nature of evil men like Hezbollah to offer others horrible choices.
Instead of turning on Israel for responding to attacks upon itself, perhaps you should turn on the jackals who have embroiled your nation in a war for their own selfish interests.
You ask "How can I hate Syria?"
Syria and Iran are the ones that pulled the trigger on the Quana incident - they are the ones that brought your country to where it is today and forcing you into more bloodbath.
Weapons keep coming from Syria to Hezbollah, as we speak. They are burning your country and you should defenitly hate them.
Lebanese Profile,
I agree with you. However sometimes one get into a situation one just can't win and then simply decide one of two choices based on direct dangers. That was the case this time. It's frightening to have 13,000 rockets directed at you while knowing that those rockets came from a country that openly declares to wipe you off the map by an organization whose left hand offers humanity and good social conditions to the less well off (in lebanon) but whose right hand is involved in sinister planning and getting ready for that as well by re-inforcing their weapon-arsenal without any trouble....
So, from what I gathered from israeli tv and its endless line of interpretators showing up on it, is that Israel concentrates on removing the hizb from their borders to eliminate the immediate threat. Would it have been removed without this action from Israel now? That's gambling. Nobody knows for sure.... I gamble that YES, the Lebanese would have cleared that job (seeing how they ousted Syria - but then: wasn't that a clever tactical move of Syria: giving in openly but keep their grip by way of Hizballah?) - but obviously Israel didn't wanna take that chance...no matter of the consequences which seem to weigh less than this immediate threat.
It was a desparate move of Israel - it's why they waited that long even if they were overseeing the building up of this threat right under their very noses at the border - Israel knows the hizb danger can't be taken out completely, ever... but staying sitting ducks was not an option either. It was a lose/lose situation making lose/lose victims....
Tse.
Thanks for this post and everything else.
I am so happy to discover your beautiful and thoughful website.
I will be back as soon as I have a chance, I want to know more.
Thanks again,
ECE
Europe is deeply divided; we cannot speak of a single political anti-Israel tone, as happened in the past. Most of the people are silent, which means that they hardly can find any arguments against Israel this time. And people also start to realize that civil causalities are wanted by Hezbollah in order to manipulate peoples’ opinion.
If you have the time, just watch these two videos here (it’s my blog):
http://www.garfos.letrascomgarfos.net/archives/2006/07/31/o-ideario-politico-do-islao/
Radical Islamism has declared war to me, to my children, family and all my friends, since 9/11. I am living near Madrid, and I waked up one morning with the news reporting an incredible attack against ordinary people travelling by train to their jobs. Since 9/11, there were more terrorism victims around the world than the sum up of all victims in this war in Lebanon, with one difference: In NY, Bali, Madrid, London et al., the dead Christian kaffirs did not have a choice, were nor previously warned about the danger.
And what is our sin? Not being a Muslim?
Chamberlain’s error must be avoided this time. There must not be any concessions. We must all learn with History.
The men and women of the Israeli military are currently fighting on the front lines of Lebanon against an insane apocalyptic program, not against the Lebanese people. Shouldn’t they deserve our solidarity?
LP, you are such an apologist for the poor Lebs. And I do use the term "Lebs" in a perjorative sense because all I read about is how they have no control over their destiny, have been against Hezbollah (vocally, though not with force of arms as in killing the terrorist groups Hezbollah). Quit whining and start actually doing something about the terrorist group that your and your fellow Lebs let take over your country.
I am all for pulling our (U.S.) troops out of Korea, put them on the southern Leb border, and with Israel, march north until all Hezbollah are killed.
I am so tired of your rationizing why you lost control of your country.
And yes, I do let my Senators, Congressman and the White House/Senate/House Leadership know of my opinion on a weekly basis.
What have you given for your country other that complaining about how poor you are a refugee? You should have went south and joined the fight against the Hezbollah.
Ron
Well said LP. Well said.
To answer your question. Yes. The Israelis do want peace. On their terms. Purely on their terms.
It will never happen.
bom garfo,
see this please
The Lebanese need to take responsibility for their country. Why is there not more focus on THIS, which is the real problem? Why don't the Lebanese ask the world community for help in getting rid of Hzbollah? Either it's because too many support them, in which case they are Israel's enemy, or they are afraid, not powerful enough, etc.
INaction has consequences too!
Lebanon allowed itself to be used for attacks against Israel. Thus, Israel is justified in attacking her.
You'd be much better off focusing on the true problems here, i.e. ignorance, poverty, racism.
I'm an Israeli. It might have been better to take a cease-fire early on, hoping that the Lebanese will finally realize the danger Hezballah represents to them (since they never cared about the danger Hezballah represents to civilians in Israel).
Then, if they still wouldn't stop Hezballah (and Lebanon probably still would not have done so) then perform the same action when Hezballah strikes again.
Israel, however, decided that Lebanon will not be able to stop Hezballah (after the first 2 days or 1 week of the war) and decided to continue militarily until Hezballah has almost no rocket launchers left. It's possible to do this. It's only a question of how many Lebanese civlians in the vicinity of Hezballah weapons die in the process.
It's all very well for you to say most Lebanese were anti-Hezballah before this war and that now they're pro-Hezballah!
The fact is we witnessed wonderful mass-protests for Syria to leave but we didn't see any wonderful mass protests calling for Hezbollah to disarm! Mass protests might have been enough. Heballah wouldn't be able to start a civil-war from that.
Again and again Hezbollah struck inside Israel and again and again Israel did practically nothing except hope that Lebanon will realize the danger and will at least come out in full-volume for Hezbollah to be disarmed. It didn't happen!!! Instead, gradually, every time, Hezbollah increased the magnitude of their sudden attacks - expanding the limits the Lebanese place on them - showing the Lebanese that "Israel will not retaliate".
As usual, there were no mass protests for Hezbollah to disarm, whether for Israel's sake or for Lebanon's.
Now I'm not blaming you or others for not demonstrating against Hizballah. I'm just explaining that for Israel, if we're given the choice of being rocketed by a militia in Lebanon's government OR not being attacked and not being killed but being hated throughout Lebanon then we WILL CHOOSE LIFE!
Yes, it's wonderful to be liked and alive!!! but we don't have that choice! And if the choice we're given is between dying or between being hated then we have to choose life!
Hezbollah was essentially telling Israel: "We are going to kill you little by little and gradually escalate our killings until our "death to Israel" is fulfilled BUT if you take serious action to stop us from killin you a little here and a little there then we'll kill you A LOT. We'll also do our best to make a lot of Lebanese die too! We'll put our weapons in their basements and between their houses etc. So if you don't want thousands of rockets randomly targetting your towns and cities, let us kill you a little here and a little there and gradually escalate our attacks, all the while you'd better not try to take away our ability to kill you".
You are saying "oh, Israel should've accepted that, even while Hezballah arms itself with more and more rockets to fulfill its stated aim of 'DEATH TO ISRAEL'".
Now it's worthwhile for you to consider the number of Lebanese deaths in this war are tiny compared to other wars fought by western armies in the last 20 years. If Israel wanted to cause more deaths, there would've been.
Hizballah fires randomly over a hundred rockets a day into Israeli towns and places its own rockets and rocket launchers under civilians or in the immediate vicinity of civilians. This is disgusting!!! And the ultimate cheek is when Hizballah points their finger at Israel and say "HA! LOOK, they killed civilians!". What disgusting hypocrisy and cynical use of civilians!
It often even launches their rockets from between civilian houses. You know that very well. Meanwhile, it threatens politicians to not talk against them!!! And you... you behave as Hizballah wants you to. I won't blame you! Just realize that if you do that, Hizballah will always attack and there will always be war.
Do you really think that Hizballah can fire over a hundred rockets a day, randomly hitting civilian population centers but put Israel in an impossible situation where Israel either cannot defend itself or else has to kill civilians in trying to attack Hizballah and its weapons?
If Hizballah "wins" there'll be more war: It's only a question of time.
Let's say Hizballah re-arms, gets even more powerful rockets, succeeds in killing far more people in Israel, the result will be a greater war - All over again! And you can support the Hizballah but where will it get you?
Go ahead and support the group that draws war into your country if you want to. They don't "defend" Lebanon. They fight for God and for the Palestinians (or rather, for Hamas) and for the "Arab nation" and the "Muslim nation". As long as Hizballah is empowered there will be war and you know it. If you're going to wait until millions of us are killed by Hizballah and their allies that'll be a very very very long period of war you'll be getting!
I hope for the sake of everyone except Hizballah that enough Lebanese see clearly enough and are courageous enough to lay the blame firmly at Hizballah's feet! That's the only thing that could stop Hizballah and create peace between Israel and Lebanon. Israel doesn't ask Lebanon to give anything! Just not to have attacks carried out from Lebanon onto Israel.
Anon.
"We're tired of hating. We hated Syria for a long time. Now, you're hated more than Syria. Has Syria ever done anything this bad? So, how can we hate Syria with such vigor any more? We can't."
Is your hobby hating Syria. Can't you say the syrian regime,maffias, whatever. i may be wrong about what you really mean.
"I don't want to hate you. I've met far too many good Israelis online."
I am happy to see that people create contacts/friendships, based on the FACT that they are neighbours after all.
But it remains frustrating to know that strategy makers have something else in mind.
"We agree that Israel is the enemy."
Something was planned for some time now. As in http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2928
" Gerald Steinberg, a political science professor at Israel's Bar-Ilan University, told the San Francisco Chronicle (7/21/05). "By 2004, the military campaign scheduled to last about three weeks that we’re seeing now had already been blocked out and, in the last year or two, it’s been simulated and rehearsed across the board." The Chronicle reported that a "senior Israeli army officer" has been giving PowerPoint presentations for more than a year to "U.S. and other diplomats, journalists and think tanks" outlining the coming war with Lebanon, explaining that a combination of air and ground forces would target Hezbollah and "transportation and communication arteries."
It's wasn't a joke.
If the Lebanese really want this to stop, why don't they release the 2 Israeli captives and agree to stop shooting rockets into Israel?
I am confident that if they agreed to do this then Israel would be willing to stop the attacks. World opinion would be strongly for it.
What's keeping Lebanon from doing this?
My guess is that Hezbollah would see this as a defeat and their pride will not permit it. They would rather see Lebanon desolate and many more children dead than admit that what their kidnapping was wrong.
Hezbollah is responsible for the continued deaths of innocents, not Israel. Hezbollah started this, and Hezbollah's selfish pride, by preventing an agreement to release the captives and stop the rockets, is making it last longer.
LP,
You must be patient ,this has only begun.
Wait until it is all finished.
I expect Syria and Iran to come to Lebanon's rescue.
Nothing will be the same after this and the real problem in the Middle East ,Islam will be dealt with as Hezbollah is crushed to rubble and dust.
Israel was making headway with the Arabs ?
Where ? In your dreams ?
I know the Palestinians were making headway in smuggleing missiles and weapons into Gaza from Egypt for the peace of Islam.
LP
You have chosen to continue the walk of the blind. The missiles from Hezbollah continue to fall on Israeli cities and this you never mentioned once. It's either your bias or stupidity which is showing now ,or it could be both ?
The Jewes prostrated themselves for a fasle peace Road Map which restrained them from action and emboldened the mad moslem's encouraging them to cut Israel's throat. Your mistake ,arab/moslem was to believe that the Jews would return to the gas chambers' quietly without a fight as they did during WWII.
Now we have WWIII and everyone who thinks like you and covers for the Islamic terrorists will suffer greatly.We always knew how shallow and phony your support for Israel was .
Israel fighting for her survival in a Sea of greedy ,intolerant and bloodthirsty neighbors only exposed what was always deep in your heart
IsraEL does not need your fake support ,she has the help and support of the Creator of the Universe and He fights for Israel now !
signed;
Christian Zionist
Israel made itself Lebanon's enemy. Not the other way around.
LP,
Can you please explain to me why Lebanon has not made peace with Israel before 1967?
That is before all these issues of Hezbollah, Shebaa farms, prisoners etc.
Perp,
Of course Israel wants peace on its own terms. So does everybody.
Israel is however realistic about its terms. IOW it can back its terms with streghth and takes responsibility for the consequences of its actions.
The Arabs and the Lebanese are delusional. They do not have the means of their terms, hence catastrophes.
I agree that little focus is put on the responsibility of the Lebanese, state and people.
KSM get real, this is not about 2 kidnapped soldiers. It is about 12000 rockets and Syria/Hamas/Nezbo who want to destroy Israel (and dont have the means)
Rather funny commentary.
Hatred? Lebanese now hate Israelis?
Who cares?
I wonder how much hate is being formented in Israel with every rocket that lands in Israeli territory.
No one ever questions Israel's feelings over the situation.
As long as rockets keep landing in Israel, who cares what Lebanese think?
I have a solution. Don't fire rockets. DOn't kill Israelis. Don't attempt to kill Israelis and this will be over.
well said. however it's the same old tripe that has been printed for the last forty years about why we should think twice before we confront degenerate terrorists. "don't do it, it will empower them." well, there's a real circle jerk. lebanon was already run by hezbollah. now at least we can openly admit it. until lebanon looks in the mirror and acknowledges that it being run and has been, by a criminal enterprise it will continue to be syria and iran's bitch. as a consequence it will be bitch slapped at will with intermittent periods of peace. hating israel, the united states or whomever only helps them spiral the drain at a faster rate.
when this conflict calms down hezbollah will turn its monsters on the people themselves. Qana was their opening act. after forty years of this i have no idea when and where it ends. as with the northern ireland saga (i'm 100% irish-american) i have gotten to the point where i don't care anymore.
Israel's currency is reality, kgs of explosives reasonably close to target (which is layman's language for "precision guided munitions"), pretty accurate rifle fire, the western way of war, hard, fast, and brutal. Thus it ever was since the time of the roman legions.
Hezbollah's currency is perception, faked photos, impressions of courage, fooling people into striking at civilians, shifting blame so that the other is at fault.
Hezbollah and Israel are both spending their currencies to buy a victory in this war. The Hezbollah money spends faster, but it is worth less because it ultimately depends on the will of others to collapse. They must convince Israel itself that it cannot win and enough of Israel's backers to not support Israel continuing its reality based war until it wins. Israel's currency is slower but depends only on Israeli arms.
Hezbollah is losing its cadre. It is losing its fighters, it is losing its trainers, it is losing its leadership. There will be no press releases totaling these losses for Hezbollah only quiet analysis by Israeli, French, US, and Lebanese intelligence.
I have no doubt that a quiet series of messages are passing back and forth between Jerusalem and Beirut with the question being "can you take them now?" and the answer always being "not yet". One day, the Lebanese will say "yes, we can take them" and on that day the Lebanese army will roll south and the Israeli bombs will stop. Hezbollah will be disarmed and the French and the rest of the EU will help rebuild and keep the peace.
That is the Israeli military game, the degradation of Hezbollah until the Lebanese government can implement the last bit of SCR1559. Israel is willing to be called all sorts of names and be treated like a monstrous criminal in the newspapers but if 1559 gets implemented and Lebanon has a real government, it's all worth it because the rockets will stop and eventually there will be a peace possible with Lebanon.
I understand that these realities are unpleasant to say in Lebanon today. In the face of civilian funerals such analysis almost seems blasphemous. Demagoguery and fancy speeches are the rule of the day. This does not change reality. Lebanon must birth a government whose writ runs the length of the country.
A Hezbollah that is openly threatening other factions will not get you there. Hezbollah could have survived and turned itself into a leading voice for the Shia. Instead they chose rebellion and violence. They must be put down for Lebanese reasons and Israel is the only one willing to do the job.
1. UN resolution 1559 stated that Hezbollah would be DISARMED. They were NOT.
2. Hezbollah launched an unprovoked attack on Israel with HUNDREDS of rockets fired into Israel and an incursion and kidnapping.
3. There are many THOUSANDS of rockets in southern Lebanon.
4. Israel has a right to defend itself which includes disarming Hezbollah.
If the UN and Lebanon and Hezbollah had complied with 1559, this would not have happened. If they had not fired upon Israel this would not have happened. To blame Israel because you do not like their response to the senseless agression is just plain wrong.
The really sad part is that Lebanon is merely a pawn in a dastardly game being played by Iran and Syria. Your vitriol should be aimed at Hezbollah and their sponsors.
This is a sad situation for both sides and many innocents are injured but in the long run no one can keep attacking another country and not expect retaliation. If the Lebanese really want a repressive government, they should just have kept Syria in there. What was the Cedar Revolution? I thought those people wanted Democracy and independence. Guess I was wrong. They just traded one group for another. When the people of the middle east decide that they love themselves more than they hate Israel, they will have peace. Lebanon's government chose to let Hezbolla attack Israel with their kidnappings and rockets. They have a huge army and yet made no attempt to disarm this group backed by foreign powers causing chaos in their country. Think about it, what country would allow a small force to start a war with a neighboring country. You tell me the people and government of Lebanon are helpless. If that is truly the case, they need let Israel get rid of Hezbollah for them. Instead, now it is Israel's fault. Talk about bad choices. You say the people of Lebanon say "slap me, and I'll slap back". You or your minions slapped Israel, then expected what? I understand these are complex problems but the solution is easy -leave Israel alone! You keep starting this fight and cry when you are hurt. "They occupied us for years...", etc. on and on, how did that come to be? Another fight you started! It is Lebanon's fault for letting Hezbollah run their country and start this - it is your country - love your country enough to fight for control of it - decide what you want - you can't have it both ways. Of course Israel isn't always right, war is horrible. Don't want one, don't start one. I am an American and am just about ready to give up supporting Democracy in the Middle East. Sorry for this rant but I was so proud of your Cedar Revolution and to hear you are in love with Hezbolla now and it is Israel's fault is too much.
MEL GIBSON
Title: Apology
Name: Georges
City: Nicosia State: n/a
How is not acceptable enough to apology for drunken stupidity, yet the IDF and IAF can apologise or express regret for wrongfully killing!
Stop whinging! The world has heard enough of your problems.
Rami,
I am sorry, really, really sorry you feel like that. But quite frankly I don't buy your argument.
The goverment of Lebanon was not powerless and is still not powerless. The Lebanese army is 5 to 10 times larger than the Hizbullah. You had six years to disarm this fanatic group, and the support of the international community to do so.
Instead, you have invited the Hezbullah into your goverment, the speaker of the house is one of them as are several ministers.
What on earth were you thinking ?!
I dont ask you to like or love Israel. I ask you to love Lebanon. If you want to be free from foriegn occupation, then stand up and start the civil war you are so afraid off.
Just a quick lesson in history. The first shots in the Israel war of independence were not between Arab and Jews. They were between Jews and Jews, as David Ben Gurion the prime minster orders the offical army to take out the radical right-winged Irgun. This was the true birth pang of the state of Israel.
You will find a similar parable in American history. Americans were fighting other Americans in the start of the civil war. So did the IRA when Irland became free.
There comes a time in any country that you have to confront your inner demons.
Peace.
Unbelievable. You are not innocent in this war. You either supported Hezbollah, or you allowed them to attack Israel for 6 years. You and your government had a chance to cooperate with Israel after their soldiers were killed and kidnapped, to turn on Hezbollah and end this war before it began but you did nothing. The people of Lebanon brought this war on themselves either through complicity in Hezbollah’s attacks or cowardice.
When are Arabs wrong?
"This is a sad situation for both sides"
Israeli morons start their post with this stupid meaningless sentence.
Fuck off guys: YOU came and messed up with those arabs in 1948, YOU invaded Lebanon, YOU build a fence in other people territory, YOU don't give a shit about gentile life, and YOU are oppressing people in Gaza and Palestine, and lmost of all YOU don't want peace.
So stop your hypocrtical "This is a sad situation for both sides".
This is a sad situation for Lebanon; you your soldiers (a new breed of "civilian soldiers" fuuuuuuuuuuck!....) and your settlers DESERVE the small amount of misery KHHHHHezbollah inflicts you.
Seems to me the smart move for American diplomats, that's good for everyone save Hezbollah and Syria, would be to make two things conditional on Hezbollah agreeing to allow in the international force to patrol Lebanon's borders and agreeing to disarm: 1) rebuilding grants and loans and 2) the actual return of Shebaa farms (with Syrian agreement).
Basic humanitarian aid would flow regardless, but not the money to rebuild all those Shi'a buildings and Lebanese bridges and roads. The return of the Shebaa teritory wouldn't happen until the disarming was complete. The money could be cut off if the disarming stopped.
So what's to be done with these arms?
There are two categories. 1) rockets 2) everything else.
The everything else (including short range rpg's etc) can be merged into the Lebanese army, as can the core of Hezbollah's militia, though it should be scattered among other units. No defensive tunnels and the like need to be destroyed. In other words, all the stuff that was actually used to defend so relatively effecitively against the Israeli ground invasion can be kept -- in the hands of the Lebanese army.
Hence Hezbollah's argument that they shouldn't be disarmed because they defended the country is countered. We need you in our natiional army.
The rockets used to fire on Israeli villages and towns however need to be destroyed.
These didn't help resist an Israeli invasion but rather helped cause it. If these were simply transferred to the Lebanese army Israel wouldn't be happy but probably won't do anything -- for now. With the current government. But if in the future Hezbollah were to head a coalition goverment or was seen as being in control of the army by other non-democratic means, this whole mess could start up again.
The present amount and size and range of Lebanon's rockets are enough that Israel regards them as an intolerable terrorist threat that can shut down the northern third of Israel at will, but can't cause enough casualties to actually deter another campaign such as this if Hezbollah were seen to be in control of them.
It would be far better for Lebanon to get rid of them.
Who am I? A non-Jewish American who's neither a rah rah supporter of Israel nor a hater, and someone who wishes to see Lebanon and her fledgling democracy flourish.
THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT IS POWERLESS. THE LEBANESE PEOPLE ARE POWERLESS (QUITE LITERALLY, IN FACT). DON'T TRY AND TELL ME THAT THE LEBANESE GOVERNMENT WAS POWERLESS BEFORE. OH, YES, IT WAS WEAK. BUT POWERLESS? DEFINITELY NOT. IF IT WAS POWERLESS BEFORE, THEN WHAT IS IT NOW? A BLACK HOLE?
Siniora does not represent interests of Lebanon:
1.
Siniora even today fighting for Sheba farms not for Lebanese people : “Israelis still occupying the Sheba farms. Hezbollah has members in the parliament and members in our Cabinet. They have their own principles, they have their own ways of doing things, we share, we don't share certain aspects and so on, but the point is that Hezbollah has a certain objective of freeing the Lebanese territories.”
And another r interesting piece :
Siniora: they are not talking about the withdrawal from Sheba farms. The withdrawal from Sheba farms is an essential thing …
Wright: These are groups of farms that were occupied by Israel in 1949?
Siniora: No, they were occupied by Israel in 1967 until 1989. Over 22 years they have been chewing piece after piece.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/Mideast/story?id=2257499&page=3
he forgot to mention that Sheba Farms they were occupied in 1967 , because aggression against t Israel and legitimate response and second it is Syrian land not fleabanes , anyway why your government scarifies your people for Syrian interests?
2.
he is still fighting for Samir Qantar When Hezbollah took the IDF troops, the first prisoner they asked for was Samir Qantar.The man who earned Hezbollah's admiration by using his rifle stock to crush the skull of a 4 year old girl. Hez did want any prisoners out they wanted SAMIR QANTAR to make any exchange impossible by definition. And look on the position of your government on that :
“Siniora:You know that Israel has been detaining several Lebanese in its prisons for the past 28 years.
Wright: Some of them are accused of murder?
Siniora: Well …
Wright: They are serving life sentences for murder
Siniora: Well, I don't want to get into this because …
Wright: But it is relevant, isn't it?
Siniora: Well, yeah, I mean, look Samir Qantar was at one time considered a murderer.
Wright: So you see these men as patriots?
Siniora: Well, it depends how you look at it. What we say is we have many things in which we differ, and many in which we find similarities. But this incident we disavow. The Lebanese government is not responsible for that.”
http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/Mideast/story?id=2257499&page=3
HEZBOLLAH HAS ALREADY DECLARED THAT IT'S WON THIS BATTLE.
It means nothing, Egypt consider that it won Yom Kippur war and Saddam considered that he won Gulf war , you can do nothing with that, they will celebrate if they stayed alive. Besides obvious successes of HEZ are direct result of using civilians as a shield, they designed new tactics . They are no longer fighting army to army, after they lost all direct military engagement through the history of the conflict the went underground and indeed developed a professional army of fighters , Israel still stocked with its Defense Force concept with 18 years kids armed and defending own country I think Israel will change its strategy as well and we will see who will win. They are fighting terrorists war and , yes, successfully so far
IN FACT, IT HAS. BECAUSE ISRAEL IS NOT GOING TO STICK AROUND TO CLEAN UP THE DAMAGE.
It is not over yet.
HEZBOLLAH COMES OUT OF THIS MORE POWERFUL THAN EVER BEFORE. THEY'VE EFFECTIVELY MOUNTED A COUP USING ISRAEL TO ASSASSINATE THE GOVERNMENT, SINCE SYRIA WAS SO INEFFECTIVE IN DOING SO. THEY'RE SO SURE THEY'VE WON THAT THEY'VE ALREADY THREATENED EVERY LEBANESE WHO SPOKE OUT AGAINST THEM DURING THE FIRST FEW DAYS OF THIS CONFLICT.
May be so, but why Israel has to pay price for containing HEZ for Lebanese convenience? What Lebanese did to subdued HEZ? Nothing. So, you want Israel will be allowing rocket firing from Lebanon and direct aggression ,time by time, just to keep political landscape in Lebanon pretty? Name me any other country, besides Israel from which world is demanding to be patient with firing rockets, aggression and not recognition of the right to exist.
YOU SEE, IT'S REALLY SIMPLE. ISRAEL KILLS LEBANESE. HEZBOLLAH DOESN'T.
May be so, but you guys launched THOUSANDS of rockets on Israel and if you missed it is not because you are peaceful you were DELIBERATELY targeting Israeli kids you just missed. So why Israel have to wait until you learn how to fire rockets more precisely and eventually kill as many as they want ?
IN FACT, HEZBOLLAH DIDN'T KILL THAT MANY ISRAELIS BEFORE THIS CONFLICT STARTED.
It did intend to. Declared goal is an elimination of state of Israel : what other country would seat and wait?
AS I SAID BEFORE, NOTHING GOOD WILL COME OF THIS.
I agree with you about that, but you guys have to accept your share of responsibilities for what is happening not only blame Israel and USA otherwise it is a deadlock
CIVILIAN DEATHS ARE HORRIBLE. SOMETIMES INNOCENT PEOPLE MUST DIE FOR A GREATER GOOD. BUT WHAT MAKES THEM EVEN WORSE IS WHEN NOTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED. WHAT DID THEY DIE FOR?
I agree that it is horrible and no wards can justify that . But if you guys will fight for HEZ and civilians will be using by them as a human shield : you are responsible for these deaths as well not only Israel .
WE THOUGHT THAT YOU, ISRAEL, WERE GOING TO LEAVE US ALONE. I do not understand that part. Israel did leave you alone and this fact was confirmed by UN, and what Israel got in return? Permanent aggression form Lebanese territory with full moral support for HEZ from Lebanese. And now you are blaming Israel?
NOW, YOU'RE HATED MORE THAN SYRIA. HAS SYRIA EVER DONE ANYTHING THIS BAD?
Did you try to fire rockets on Syria? Did you try to kidnap Syrian solders? Did you try military aggression on Syrian territory? Did you try to proclaim as your goal wiping Syria out for the ,map? Did you try to proclaim as your goal extermination of all Syrians as nation?
Try it and I will see what Syria will do with Lebanon.
EVERYONE ELSE HATES YOU.
They did hate Jews before Israel they will hate Jews despite Israel they will hate Jews anyway. Jews have nothing to loose in this sense it is proven historical trend.
I CAN'T. I WANT TO, BUT I CAN'T. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND YOU. I REALLY, REALLY DO. I DON'T WANT TO HATE YOU. I'VE MET FAR TOO MANY GOOD ISRAELIS ONLINE.
Thank you for that . I admire your ability to go beyond the hate. Thinking together is the way out . Thinking versus demagoguery , facts versus ideology . I do not think that Israel is doing right things but it does not mean that all others can be justified because of Israelis mistakes, and it is precisely what is going on everybody involved in the conflict using Israelis mistakes as an alibi for own intentional wrongdoings, and this is a huge piece of demagoguery and hypocrisy which I am going to fight.
IN THE BACK OF MY MIND THERE IS A QUESTION: DOES ISRAEL REALLY WANT PEACE?
It depends of your definition of the peace.
Koby said—
I am sorry, really, really sorry you feel like that. But quite frankly I don't buy your argument.
The goverment of Lebanon was not powerless and is still not powerless. The Lebanese army is 5 to 10 times larger than the Hizbullah. You had six years to disarm this fanatic group, and the support of the international community to do so
Frankly Koby you don’t know what you’re talking about. And you’re looking at the situation exclusively from Israel’s perspective – and a dim Israeli perspective at that.
Lebanon hasn’t had six years (since Israel withdrew) to disarm Hezbollah. Syria only withdrew from occupying Lebanon two years ago. Syria was the military power in Lebanon while she was there and Israel wasn’t. Syria was (and still is) allied with Hezbollah and arming Hezbollah. Now she’s doing if from the other side of the border.
Following the Syrian withdrawl after the bloodless Cedar Revolution, the process of starting up a democracy began with remarkable success, and lack of bloodshed. The current government has only been in office a year. They were negotiating with Hezbollah to disarm, but having trouble. Confronting them militarily would have lead to a resumption of civil war, which Lebanon suffered through from 1975-90, with enormous loss of life and property far exceeding the present disaster. Hezbollah would have likely won that war, and if it wasn’t Syria might well have reinvaded.
to bernhard:
WHY DOES THIS ASSUMPTION (THAT ISREAEL IS INDEED FORCING PEACE AND STABILITY UPON LEBANON) SOUNDS A BIT WEIRD IN MY EARS? MAYBE YOU SEE MORE THAN I CAN SEE, MAYBE YOU HEAR MORE THAN I CAN HEAR, MAYBE YOU CAN GRASP THE BRIGHT AND FULL PICTURE, AND YOU SEE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY THE EQUATION: KILLING=PEACE+ FREEDOM SOLVED. I AM SORRY, I CAN'T SEE THIS.
You are performing the typical demagoguery spin It is not what Paul was saying.
Israel have no goals to force peace an stability in Lebanon. It is Lebanese business to enforce peace and stability in its country (if it is a country and not just a territory). Israel is destroying HEZ military facilities which are intentionally blended into civilian infrastructure what cause heavy civilian casualties . No more nor less. Paul emphasized that Israel, unlike US in Iraq ,is NOT pursuing any goals beyond destroying of attackers
STAYING ALIVE= KILLING THOSE WHO WANT TO KILL YOU
Al said--
Siniora even today fighting for Sheba farms not for Lebanese people : “Israelis still occupying the Sheba farms. Hezbollah has members in the parliament and members in our Cabinet.
I doubt if Siniora himself really cares that much about Shebaa Farms. He pretends to and wants to get it ‘back’ diplomatically because Hezbollah has made it such a nationalistic rallying cry, designed to get it support both within and without the Shi’a community (with at least some success) and excuse for not disarming as the other militias have. If Siniora can get it back by diplomacy the logic of Hezbollah disarming is that much stronger. That doesn’t mean Hez will suddenly want to disarm for that reason alone, but it helps.
Tying rebuilding money to Hezbollah disarming would also help, probably more.
In other terms, you think that Israel should have kept quiet, even when provoked, so that you Lebanese can continue the same way of life. "Tout le monde il est beau, tout le monde il est gentil...". You were living a nightmare and now you woke up. REACT - Don't blame Israel for the destruction which were the consequences of a provocation by Hezbollah
LPJ, it appear that lebaneses are like a leaf in the wind.
They are powerless to act against Hezbollah. So what they are able to do against Israel?
They won't isolate Hezbollah before, they didn't after the kidnapping and they don't do it now.
Why Israel would be interested in the life and properties of lebaneses?
Do you act to help them before, when they were the victims of Hezbollah?
Did you give a damn about the loss of israelis lives before, apart a few hollow words?
You have make clear that Hezbollah rule Lebanon, directly or indirectly.
You are thrall; willing thrall.
You are slaves, because you think like slaves.
You can have peace with Hezbollah or peace with Israel, never count to have both.
Hope Israel will never start to play with you as Hezbollah play you:
they would create a wasteland and call it "Peace".
The Isarelis are making more people hate them?!? How would you be able to tell?
If you live in Lebanon, the government of Lebanon and Hezbollah are your problem, not ours. If you did't want the Israeli Air Force pounding your cities into rubble then you should have taken care of Hezbollah a while ago. It's not like you didn't see this coming. No one is here to save you from the consequences of your own actions.
In the winter of 1777 our citizen-soldiers starved and froze to death at Valley Forge while fighting the greatest army in the world at the time. If you want freedom from Hezbollah and Syria, you'd better be prepared to make a similar sacrifice.
I wish it were different. I wish there was a negotiation that could make it all go away. There isn't. That's been going on for years. You could wallpaper your house with peace treaties from the Middle East.
The democracy you're trying to build has the support of President Bush. It's exactly what we hope to see grow in the Middle East. You've done many good things, but there are greater sacrifices still ahead of you if you want your descendents to live in freedom and peace. At least you have our support.
I am hoping that by the end of this Hezzbullah is neutralized, our soldiers are returned to us, the kidnappers are taken into custody, and that there can be peace made between our two countries. But to do that Hezzbullah must be ousted. The world won't do it and Lebanon can't. So who else should do it?
We can't allow the terror to continue on our doorstep and not do anything about it. It is unreasonable to expect us to sit still and allow ourselves to become vicitims of kidnappings and terrorism. We have an obligation to defend our own citizens.
I'm a mom of two soldiers. I worry about them. I don't want to have to worry about my future grandsons being in a war as well.
to dougjnn:
Why are we guessing? Let us ask somebody who knpw leabanease polits good eonoght. How about Lebanese Druze Leader Walid Jumblatt ?
on Al-Arabiya TV he said about nasrallah’s intentions : " Then he will say to you: 'We want to liberate the Shab'a Farms, and I need to keep my weapons in order to liberate Shab'a.' Then he will tell you that we should implement Resolution 194 - the return of the refugees to Palestine. In such a case, Lebanon will become an open battlefield for the Syrian and Iranian regimes."
If Jumblatt does not trust Shab'a Farms excuses, why should we take it seriously? Why I quoted Siniora’ interview about Shab'a Farms because in my view it shows that he have not interested in peace. After all, if you , my Lebanese friend are so interested in peace why you are demanding ceasefire, not a peace? There are no problems between Jordan and Israel and no problems between Egypt and Israel. They did recognize Israel and they got peace. Why you do not want to do the same, if you indeed looking for peace? Otherwise you are sacrificing with lives of your own civilians to perpetrate the ideologically driven fight for elimination of Israel. Are you interested in peace , Lebanon?
Lebanon.profile--
As I've said, what does Israel realistically hope to accomplish?
I know from reading Israeli papers what the principal purpose of this campaign was before it started. And the truth is that yes it has been planned and on the shelf for a couple of years. Not for land though. For another reason.
The capture of the two Israeli soldiers and killing of 8 others in the capture and immediate rescue attempt was the initially claimed reason since it had just occurred and was an escalation. The diversionary mortar and rocket attack injuring five civilians was also a reason.
But the real reason was the IDF and Israeli sense that deterrence against Hezbollah and Lebanon had eroded. Hezbollah had been raining rockets on it’s border villages on and off for six years. It was also alarmingly building up a larger and larger arsenal of bigger and longer range rockets of the type that have been hitting Haifa. That’s what had to be deterred at the least, and destroyed or moved out of range if at all possible. The development over time where Hezbollah believed it could rain down rockets from time to time, conduct raids across the border, and build up a bigger and better rocket inventory all with impunity had to be ended.
Israel felt it had to act sooner or later, probably sooner. The soldier kidnapping tipped the scales to NOW.
In the back of my mind there is a question: Does Israel really want peace?
Yes I’m sure Israelis really do want peace with Lebanon. (They want peace with Palestinians too but unfortunately in that case on decidedly lopsided terms.) But they were convinced that although the bulk of Lebanon’s citizens might want peace with Israel, Hezbollah definitely didn’t, and was building up a stronger and stronger capability to attack Israel. So for this reason they decided they didn’t want peace with Hezbollah, but rather war.
They also decided the way they could most effectively deter Lebanon and Hezbollah and weaken the later (at least for now), and get the cooperation of Lebanese society and ‘the international community’ in those goals, was to do what they’ve done in this war, more or less (Qana was a clear PR disaster).
Will this campaign deter Hezbollah from more casual rocket attacks from time to time, designed to show it’s still “waging war on Israel”. I think it will. The consequences are clear.
Will it weaken Hezbollah? That’s less clear. It clearly has strengthened it’s popularity on the pan Arab street and that will last. It isn’t their country that’s turned to rubble. At the MOMENT, while the bombs are still falling, it’s also strengthened their popularity in Lebanon as well.
Will they still be strengthened politically as the slog of rebuilding is well underway? Or will the need to restrain and defang them become glaringly obvious? My guess is the later.
WWIII -The Horse is Out of The Barn
REVELATION 6
First Seal: The Conqueror
Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the *seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
WE ARE HERE RIGHT NOW !
Second Seal: Conflict on Earth
3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come *and see."
4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Third Seal: Scarcity on Earth
5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A *quart of wheat for a *denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."
Fourth Seal: Widespread Death on Earth
7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see."
8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Fifth Seal: The Cry of the Martyrs
9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Sixth Seal: Cosmic Disturbances
12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and *behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the *moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, *the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, 16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
It's not hard to see the Arab ego incapable of staying out of this brewing World War.
The Egyptians,Saudi's,Jordinian's ,Syrian's Lebanses and Iranian's meet to plan their next move as the comatose west recieves another iv feeding of media food.
Syria is about to jump into it's final war with Israel and all hell is about to break loose everywhere ,all tied into Israel and the Jews survival whom the nations of world have already betrayed.
The great majority of Christians in the world today are also in a comatose state and failed to see the Rider on the White Horse of Revelation 6 :2 going forth conquering Afghanistan and Iran and to conquer Iran and North Korea.
The Rider on the Red Horse ,Islam,Russia,China, which takes peace from the earth has already left the barn and the 5 virgins are fast asleep ,still in delusions of early rapture ,escape .
The leaven has done it's work.
These decieved Christians will have their foundation's shaken and many will fall away, not having prepared themselves.
The Lebanese are the most pathetic nation I've come across. As long as Hizbollah kept out of business in Beirut they were fine letting them stock up with rockets and turning south Lebanon into a fort.
Its not enough crticising Hizbollah in the press and not acting to disarm them at the same time. You failed to do it and forced Israel to do your laundry - yet again!
You are truely a pathetic people - so stupid and arrogant that you do not thank Israel for doing your work. Israel has no interest being in your country - it only wants Hizbollah's ability to serve as Iran's test bed eliminated. This is an existencial problem for Israel - Iran wants us wiped out.
Israel was attacked by Lebanon and it had better disarm the real Lebanese army - Hizbollah.
I do not see an end to this war while the Lebanese continue to be pathetic - they support their stated enemy Hizbollah vs. taking the opportunity to wipe them out while they are weak.
Its so strange, because the Lebanese are very strong in business and are great business competitors, but when it comes to defending their freedom they are useless.
Take control of your freedom or you will loose it!
How many rockets have Hez launched in the last two days?
If Hez stop launching rockets first, based on weakness, how are they going to come out heros?
Maybe Isreal really has depleted their launchers. If this is the case, Hez have lost. Iran and Syria are looking at the choice of escalate or fold.
THE ARABS ARE NEVER RIGHT
Ramon said Israel was making real progress against Hezbollah, which he said was at "breaking point," adding that an expanded ground offensive should bring victory.
The arab face is shamed once again as their best fighters are reduced to dead human trash to be buried or picked clean by the birds of prey.
The pathological liar also know as moslems said hezbollah could not be defeated.
They are being pulled from their roots and burned into a large pile of ashes.
The lunatic and demented Arab Leauge cannot stomach another defeat at the hand of the Jew's even with Clown Kofi and the Eurotrash on their side.
My guess is that Syria and Egypt
will jump into the fray shortly to save the ugly arab face ,and the 'face' will be blown off their heads for their last LOSING battle against the Israel of God.
This is the demonstration of the self-infantilization of the Lebanese that I was talking about over at Michael Totten's blog (the post appears to have disappeared -- if Totten's deleted it, that's entirely his prerogative).
"We're powerless," Lebanon.Profile screams. Over and over. Actually, we were weak. Then we became powerless. Now we're extrapowerless. We don't have any responsibility for the viper we've harbored and nourished.
But then, in less than a paragraph, he turns it around. "We were already against Hezbollah." After all, we wrote letters to the editor.
Hezbollah, he tells us has won, because -- and I couldn't make this up -- "Israel is not going to stick around to clean up the damage."
Infantalization. It's not just that Lebanon.Profile is unwilling to do what's necessary to rid his country of Hezbollah, it's that he expects others to fix things for him, and for his/Lebanon's own actions and inactions not to have consequences, because some Daddy is supposed to make things all better.
In that sense, part of the Israeli failure becomes clear: the infantilized Lebanese still fear Hezbollah more than the IDF.
Now, that's something that can be changed, and I don't think Lebanon.Profile or Lebanon will be on the road to adulthood until and unless that happens.
I do not understand all this and I don’t want to be part of this,
I lost hope in all kind of humanity on earth; humans of any race of any religion, of any nation, of any kind
I do not belong to any group and I will not support any nation or religion, all of this is wrong, stop this madness.
People, I don’t believe you care about any thing or any life form on earth that is not part of ur group
good bye cruel world i'm going to dream land wher cats and dogs love each other and play
I have some sympathy for your statements here, but you have made no attempt to see the Israeli perspective. Time to go beyond "There are really are good Israelis" and start thinking logically - meaning, "why should Israel trust the Lebanese to make Hizballah stop attacking them, ignoring attacks because they'll get taken care of by some nebulous future Lebanese goodwill?"
Personally, I don't think that Hizballah has any particular plan to wipe Israel out, but they sure do say it a lot, don't they? For better or for worse, Hizballah has convinced Israel that its survival is at stake.
Would I have liked to see a response from Israel that targeted Hizballah more specifically? Yes, absolutely.
But who are you to tell Israel that it should let an acceptable number of its civilians die without seeking to eliminate the threat? Wouldn't you like your government to do the same for you? Do you like it when the Lebanese government is impotent against the people killing Lebanese? No? Then why would the Israeli government like that, either?
Hizballah had to be hit. Plain and simple, they started it. Clear as day.
Now, you're hated more than Syria. Has Syria ever done anything this bad?
Now you've got to be kidding me. Have you ever heard of the Hama massacre? Israel dropped a bomb that killed 55 civilians at a stroke and has killed several hundred recently. Mr. Assad killed 25000 in a week, face to face, begging for mercy. You *know* exactly how much worse Syria is.
We don't hear much about the US role in this war. However, they are so much aligned with the Israelis that the impression is given that they are the ones leading the ball. Who is really the proxy here? "We shall prevail" , said Rice. Is she Israeli? Or is it that the Pentagon is the mastermind behind the operation? Tel Aviv is producing the exactly identical propaganda than the one used in Washington. At every phrase uttered by an israeli or american official, they can't help repeating all over again their well learnt lesson about the role of Syria and Iran. The same sort of brainwashing preparation they used to demonize Saddam and prepare their public opinion with the war they had already decided.
If the israeli and US interests may today coincide, I fear that this military and ideological merge is not going in the long run to serve either the israeli or the US people interests. Bush being already number one on the hate list of most of the people of the world, this might bring anti-semitism to the same level of popularity.
A rand indeed...
You say: "You see, it's really simple. Israel kills Lebanese. Hezbollah doesn't" (I had troubles to keep on reading after that.. managed just a bit more..)
It's so sad that you even think that way. The bombs that kill the Lebanese in Qana (maybe) and other places are Israeli. The mastermind is Nasrallah. The victims are Israelis and Lebanese.
When your weak government (or as you say powerless) starts claiming Nasrallah is a hero and now says it is "not willing" to deploy along the border and in the south, your government becomes an accomplice. Nothing else. Powerless you say? so at least they can shut up :( It was shameful enough they said "we didn't know - so we are not even a bit responsible". It is worse that they "play hard" now and claim that Nasrallah is a good man they works for the Lebanese interest. Maybe the beginning of the end for Lebanon (at least in this "round"?)
Maybe it's time that the majority of the Lebanese will be as fanatic about peace as Nasrallah is fanatic about war?
You don't want to risk your life for peace so someone else risks it for you for war. For Iran's interests. For Syrian.
What does Israel want? To not be attacked. That's it. Isn't it simple enough??? Is that too much to ask??????????
Maybe you should read this? - http://israpundit.com/2006/?p=2070
A vexed Israeli :(
What Israel is trying to accomplish?
Basically it is only one simple goal: to make sure that our sovereignty and boarders would not be crossed again by aggressors (killing and kidnapping our soldiers) and that no missiles would be launched in the future against our population, from Lebanon.
In order to achieve it Israel cannot stop fighting now or else it loses the war, Hezbollah is popular in Lebanon (as you mention) and we will be in the very near future in the same ballgame all over again (i.e. Iranian/Syrian/Lebanese aggression against Israel proxied via Hezbollah).
Lebanon can make this war end in a second – all they need to do is force Hezbollah to return the soldiers (in return of the 2 murderers butchers Lebanese Israel is rightfully holding in prison and some Hezbollah corps) and make sure Hezbollah would be fully disarmed.
Hezbollah themselves accepts the return of the soldiers (against the 2 Lebanese prisoners) and the entire international community would support the disarming of Hezbollah.
That being said – Quana was an unfortunate incident, caused by the inhumanity of Hezbollah terrorists, intentionally risking the lives of innocent people.
They will pay for this crime and the crimes they are committing every day against Israeli civilians killing and injuring old people women and children of all religions (while the world is turning a blind eye).
Ok, I managed to read more...
"Now, you're hated more than Syria. Has Syria ever done anything this bad?"
Are you serious?
"In the back of my mind there is a question: Does Israel really want peace?"
Remind me... what did Israel did to Lebanon for the last 6 years? NOTHING. PEACE!
Why are we in conflict? Why was it ignited? Do you have any doubts about that? Do you really really really not know?? Do you know who's interests it serves?? Lebanese? - no! Israeli - no! Syrian? (that you can't seem to hate and blame) Iranian? - You need answer that one question!
I am sad for you. Not patronizing sad. Not pity sad. Not mocking sad. Really simple kind of sad. For you and for me.
I am sad that you can't realize on your own wnat Israelis want.
I am sad you can not support the same cause that Israel has. Peace.
I am sad that we can let more of us (Israeli soldiers and civilians) die quietly by Hezballah while your weak (now powerless) take your time to talk to Hezballah about leaving Israel (as if it really will do so by talking to them).
I am sad that Lebanese fear civil war so much that you are willing to let Hezballah control their fate and let 3000 armed people to control the entire south of Lebanon and Lebanon is not brave enough to march their army to the south and the border.. not to kill Hezballah, simply to take control of the land and border and keep the peace that Israel wanted and still do.
What Israel wants is as clear as bell. It is as loud as alarm. It is as bright as the sun.
Peace! Even simple and real eternal quiet without real peace would do.
Why does the US propose a United Nations intervention?
http://www.hirhome.com/israel/hezbollah4.htm
Ron,
If Israel wanted peace, it would have got peace long ago...
It would have stopped oppressing Palestinians and breeding terrorists (and don't give me rubbish about the "painful" Gaza retreat: you transformed Gaza thereafter in a concentration camp)
If Israel wanted peace, it would have stopped occupying Lebanese and/or Syrian land. It would have cleared all pending problems with Lebanon. Why can't you see these realities? I know why; you as israelis lack insight, you lack lucidity, you lack empathy, ....
I am sad for you. Not patronizing sad. Not pity sad. Not mocking sad. Really simple kind of sad. For you and for me. Especially for you because of the fact that you cannot and will not, by education, by culture, by idunno, be able to show ANY and i mean ANY empathy to any non jewish person. You just cannot put yourself in the shoes of the "Other" the "Gentile" and for a second feel the injustice, the oppression, the racism that you inflict.... This is why you don't want peace; to have peace with a former ennemy you have to have at some point.
This is why i pity you; i pity you for this serious handicap you have and that will destroy you one day, for sure.
You zionist fascist are in no way better than the islamist fascists you combat.
And please don't use the word "peace" anymore.
Joel: "This is the demonstration of the self-infantilization of the Lebanese that I was talking about over at Michael Totten's blog (the post appears to have disappeared -- if Totten's deleted it, that's entirely his prerogative)."
I didn't delete anything.
moshe said...
That being said – Quana was an unfortunate incident, caused by the inhumanity of Hezbollah terrorists, intentionally risking the lives of innocent people.
Leveling that building in Qana was really pig headed stupid on the part of the IDF. They should have been particularly careful about leveling buildings in that town given the purported Israeli massacre there ten years ago and public outcry which lead to the ceasefire in that prior conflict. I doubt it was accidental but I’m not saying they knew there were that many clear non-combatants (women and children) inside. They should have realized there could be, and given the fact that the town had taken on great symbolic meaning for Lebanese and Arabs generally, it was idiotic for the Israeli’s to not be more prudent. Aside from humanitarian concerns (and myself I don’t know why rationally Qana deaths are more important than other civilian deaths in Lebanon on THAT score), it has hurt Israel in the willingness and ability of Siniona to get concessions from Nasrallah before a halt to hostilities. Obviously leverage on Hezballah goes down once hostilities are halted.
And yes I know that lots of rockets were being fired from Qana.
Josey Wales said:
Of course Israel wants peace on its own terms. So does everybody.
Israel is however realistic about its terms. IOW it can back its terms with streghth and takes responsibility for the consequences of its actions.
The Arabs and the Lebanese are delusional. They do not have the means of their terms, hence catastrophes.
Putting aside the anger and rethoric and the finger-pointing. I think it is high time the arab world, as a whole, accept the above reality. We live in a world of reality. Pragmatism SHOULD reign king. I know, I know, it's very anti-romantic to throw away idealism so blatantly, but idealism has gotten us nowhere. Idealism does not get your children and mine to school safely every day. Idealism does not make for a life free of bomb threats and missile attacks.
We (arabs as a whole) need to get our heads out of the proverbial sand if we want to salvage some semblance of peace and dignity for ourselves and our children.
I find rants such as this blog entry to be very aproductive.
Essentially what the lebanese are saying is this: put up with us because there is nothing you can do about us.
Reading this blog cements my belief that the lebanese made a choice: their hatred of Israel rather than their fear of Hezbullah.
You see its really rather simple: lebanese kill Israelis, Israelis don't kill Israelis. The rockets were coming from Lebanon and I'm frankly tired of listening to listless lebanese men bemoan their lack of "power".
It's not a lack of power that allowed hezbullah to gain control of your country its a lack of courage. Why is it that the Israelis and the Americans can find 19 year old men and woman who are willing to fight for what they believe and you guys couldn't get off your asses?
so which is it? Is it that you hated jews anyway so you let hezbullah have its way or that you lacked the balls to take them on?
the false dichotomy of the Arab muslim world simply must be challenged. If Israel does nothing the Lebanese continue to hurl deadly missles at them. If Israel does something your hatred of them is confirmed. It's a no win for Israel by your definition. The jews have no way out and they should just shut up and die.
yeah, right.
and then the whole bit about destroying Israel is pure self centered pap. You are already trying to destroy Israel, what the f word do you think those rockets were for?
My goodness some of this stuff is just so amazing. Perhaps we're seeing the perpetual victim mentality brought to its ridiculous extreme. You are a victim, but the Israelis living in bomb shelters aren't?
This situation comes down to a simple question: who is attempting to impose their will on whom? yes we can look at Israel's history and recognize failures, but ultimately no one in Israel is demanding that the arabs convert to judiasm or die. The Islamist in the Arab muslim world make such pronouncements routinely. We are abjured to convert or pay tribute or die.
We are threatened routinely by men you revere as "holy". Your government and your religious leaders have whipped hatred into a cultural dynamic and its aimed at Israel and anybody who supports here.
the Muslims seek to impose their will on the rest of the world but somehow the Israelis and the Americans are wrong to resist.
You lebanese need to grow up. There is evil rampant among you and your willingness to accept them as part of your culture makes you a large part of the problem.
Ron - I agree with your statement: "What does Israel want? To not be attacked. That's it. Isn't it simple enough??? Is that too much to ask??????????"
It really is as simple as that. The problem is Israel's current military campaign in Lebanon has NO CHANCE of reaching that goal. If and when the Hezbollah attacks stop, it will not be through military victory.
In the destruction of Lebanon and in the chaos of this war, Hezbollah thrives. This is their environment of choice, the best soil for cultivation and spread of their radical energy. As you are seeing, the willingness of rational people to embrace radical thought explodes out of the pain and anger that war inevitable causes, no matter how carefully it is executed. Israel is feeding the monster.
I am not suggesting that Hezbollah is right or blameless in the destruction of Lebanon. They are the direct cause. Hezbollah wanted the war and provoked Israel to action. Hezbollah wants to be stronger; they want the widest possible support for their radical ideology. It is counter-intuitive but they know that engaging Israel in a bloody war -- especially one that draws in other interests (Lebanon) -- will make them stronger, even if Israel kills many of its members and destroys most of the rockets. Over time, these are easily replaced.
Hezbollah has cast Israel into a role they know Israel plays reliably and very well.
I am not suggesting that Israel does not have a right to defend itself. In fact, Hezbollah is counting on Israel to aggressively exercise this right to the exclusion of other options that might align the world community against radical ideology and marginalize Hezbollah. The Israeli response keeps Hezbollah at center-stage world-wide, right where they want to be. Oddly, in its legitimate exercise if it’s right to defense -- and in the manner it has predictably chosen to do so -- Israel strengthens rather than weakens Hezbollah. It is better to be effective than right.
It is not too much to ask that Israel not be attacked. Absolutely not. But until we in the U.S. and Israel make choices that move Hezbollah and other groups off of center stage and to the far fringe of Arab society, we should expect more radicalism, more attacks, and more war.
The solution lies beyond tanks, jets and bombs. After decades of watching the same bloody play in the Middle East, that understanding ought to be simple enough.
There is a saying that holds very true...
If the Arab nations would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel put down her weapons, there would be no more Israel. They are proving to the entire world that they will not be messed with anymore. If you have a swarm of flies that keeps bugging you, eventually you get out the fly swatter. If any other country had the equivalent of an Oklahoma city bombing every day on their country's soil, I guarantee they would not show as much restraint as the Israelis have shown over the years. I say good for them.
"Thanks, Israel. Hezbollah now runs Lebanon."
Maybe you should instead be thanking Israel for destroying the militant theocracy controlling southern Lebanon -- a job the other Lebanese were unable and/or unwilling to do.
Skipsailing - I encourage you to re-think this view. "Reading this blog cements my belief that the Lebanese made a choice: their hatred of Israel rather than their fear of Hezbollah."
Look, Israel occupied southern Lebanon for 18 years to crush and control Hezbollah. They couldn't do it. But suddenly, UN resolution 1559 gets passed and poof, its just supposed to happen.
When faced with the horrible deaths in Qana, all thinking people -- including most Israelis -- are revulsion on some level (even if in silence). The death of Lebanese civilians is not Israel's goal. Not al all. Nonetheless, it is happening. To keep some sense of sanity and preserve some sense of humanity, war supporters must find an explanation that can resolve the moral dilemma created by the killing.
The devices used -- and I think the point of your post -- is to articulate a way out of the moral dilemma of Qana. What I believe you are saying is, "Lebanon hates Israel and loves Hezbollah so whatever death befalls you Lebanese, it is your own choosing. It is not our doing but yours."
That may ease the soul and bit but it is not the truth.
Ok Peter
You want hezboallh stop attacking you, they are willing to do so. But its totally unfair for you to attack the lebanese people on daily basis. and after all the carnages, you claim that hezboallh
should stop attacking. OK first israel wants war, they want to continue inflicting damage on Lebanon without anyone defending Lebanon. Look Mr. peter you have been mistaken, The real reason israel is involved in such a war is only to occupy more lands from lebanon in order to increase the size of great israel. PLus, to destroy the reputation of the hezboallh resistence so that everything becomes easy in their mission. The lebanese people cannot stand this bitter reality of occupation again. And are willing to fight in order to get you out of lebanon. So IC ..you are not fighting for the 2 and only 2 kidnapped soldiers but also to make LEBANON more POWERLESS by destroying Hezboallh. God Save Lebanon from the vampire of israel!!!. Please Israel no more occupation and abduction of Lands. What happened in Palestine and happening now is catastrophic. Any country without resistence to fight for their people especially if the government is powerless will become an ultimate victim of the great israel!!
And yet another interesting comment. Peter R-austin assures us that what Israel is currently doing will not work, but what I cannot discern in his post is an opinion about what will work.
Isn't it time to stop with the critique and offer an alternative? do you have an alternative strategy to offer?
Frankly I think what Israel is doing makes complete sense and here's why.
The blogger who wrote the original post made two things perfectly clear: he hates Israel and he's ineffectual.
so when Israel demolishes Hezbullah's military capacity, all they will have left is hate. Hate without weapons or constrainted by rational fear of reprisal won't disrupt the peace of the region.
that hate is the problem of Lebanese and since they've demonstrated that they will do NOTHING why should Israel worry about them?
so let's watch Israel take a good hard whack at these sick Hezbullah men in Lebanon while the lebanese whine and feel sorry for themselves. Israel can't make all these people stop hating, but they can make them stop hurling deadly missles at Israeli cities.
If you have a better suggest, pray sir, post it.
Anon- so pick up the flyswatter and swat away. Have the war you desire. Just quit pretending that it's going to result in less radicalism in the Middle East, fewer Hezbollahs, and less threat to Israel. Embrace reality, fight on, and develop the stomach for "collateral damage" and the death of the innocent. That's the cost of doing business you choose so quit blaming everybody else when it happens. Be tough, come on.
And quit complaining that they fight back and hide when you come to bomb them. They're not stupid.
Peter R-Austin said: "The problem is Israel's current military campaign in Lebanon has NO CHANCE of reaching that goal. If and when the Hezbollah attacks stop, it will not be through military victory."
Did I say that was the goal? The goal is to destroy as much as it can the missile stockpile, arms, launching pads and people of the Hezballah. Time will tell how unsucessful that is.
If Israel can not get peace from the attack on Hezballah, does it mean Israel should lay down and die? Should it give up and get killed? Military action is unavoidable at this point. It was, the minute Hezballah crossed the line. Crossed and deleted.
Israel doesn't expect the military action in Lebanon to bring the peace. It expects to weaken Hezballah and limit or stop the misslie attacks.
After the military action there will be talks. There will be ceasefire.
And at that time Israel EXPECTS the Lebanese to be responsible. To be accountable.
I expect the Lebanese to understand very well that Israel wants peace. Any claims that because of whartever situation Israel has with the Palestinians is not even close to a proof otherwise. Israel wants peace with the Palestinians as well. War agaist Hamas is also unavoidable. Letting terrorists rule your future is a BAD move. See Lebanon - they let Hezballah do exactly that. Weak or powerless.. that is what they did.
What do Lebanese expect??
What do LP really think Israel wants? I know, it's a rant. But rants aside, don't you know Israel wants peace? Isn't that what Lebanon got in 2000? for 6 years? Lebanon likes peace? PRESERVE it! Get rid of Lebanon, even if it requires risky, dangerous or painful measures.
All I want is peace. For me. For Israel. For the same majority of Lebanon. For the vast majority of the Palestinians. For the world.
A still vexed Israel.
Let me clue you in on something...
Israelis don't particularly care about Lebanon. Lebanon has been continuously bombing Israel since 1969, so it's hard to conjure up a lot of pity.
No, the goal hear is not to reduce Hezbollah's motivation to attack. Experience has shown that when you fight arabs, they attack. When you negotiate with Arabs, as israel did throughout the 90's, they attack. When you withdraw unilaterally from areas you occupied defending yourself from Arab attacks, as Israel did from Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005, they attack again. Is there a pattern here? Hmmm...
Nope, the goal here is to knock out Hezbollah's ABILITY to attack, not their motivation, which is unchangeable. Yes, Hizbullah may re-emerge and re-arm and attack again, but such is life in this neck of the woods.
Here Come Israel's Bulldozers Again, But Are They Really There Destroying Hezbollah or the Small Homes of Innocent People? Since The Jews of Israel Lie So Much To Cover Their War Crimes It Is Impossible to Know Any Truth From their Mouths!!! God Save Lebanon.
bernhard said...
@poul: why is it that your post sounds as if Israel (or the IDF) is doing a favour to Lebanon? Is this really the case?
israel is defending itself, regardless of whether it's good or bad for lebanon. it has to.
what i am saying is that lebanon, if it so choses, may use results of israeli actions as an opportunity to build a normal country, which is impossible with hizballah at full military power.
sounds like simple logic to me.
Why dont we investigate the root of the so- called terrorists organizations (Hamas and hezbollah). what factors contributed to the creation of such organizations? IT'S ANGER. Israel doesnt ever stop its militay actions of killing and destroying and exploiting. ITs THE nature of the Jews because they were abused before form HItler. the unjustified and terrorist actions of israelis led to the emerging of organizaitons that can defend its people since the government is poweless. Also, Evan why do you think there is a conflict between israel and Lebanon. Israel occupied the farms of Shabha in Lebanon for long time. Therefore, the resistence cannot bear such illegal occupation. ok tell me, what if hezollah occupied some lands of yours (if its your land form the origin..hmmm) what would you do?? Be quiet and let them occupy more or use the israelis nuclear weapons to destroy those people? Occupation is an illegal act. The root of the problem here is israel. Do you know why? because they are greed. they were so fed up when israel withdrew from the south in 2000 because of the lebanese resistence. Now they want ot take their revenage and return the lands of shabah including other lands in Lebanon. Israelis should think wisely. THey started a war under the cover of self-defense. BUT PLEAse can you resturn the thousands lebanese prisoners for lebanon. They are innocent people.(PLeaze Jews stop lying the prisoners in your jails are totally innocent). Afterwards, Hezbollah can return your kidnapped soldiers and both of you can live in mutual peace. Well im not with Hezbollah. But what makes that Guy smarter than most ISraelis is that he doesnt lie as much as the israeils and jews. He says the truth most of the time. BUT jews lie to cover up everying with propagandas and kill more lebanese.
MY heart is with you lebanon
MARCEL.
Is this above poster an Islamic devil trying to pose as me ?
August 2nd 2006:
Israel suffers a massive attack almost certainly with chemical and/or biological weapons that will kill thousands of people. This attack will probably be in Tel Aviv.
August 2nd 2006, a fire like a terror
In that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel
August 3rd 2006:
Israel destroys Damascus in a sudden attack, probably with one or more nuclear weapons, to avoid being attacked again.
( Israel will hold Syria responsible for the supply of chemical and/or biological weapons to hezbollah.)
There are many references in Bible prophecy and Bible codes that are directly related to the most important events of this war between Israel, hezzbolah and hamas that is taking place in Lebanon, Gaza and in the northern towns of Israel.
On top of that these Chapter 8, 2-3 verses refer to times of trouble for Israel, death, destruction, mercy on the city, night, bodies not gathered and not buried and cries among other things.
It’s 100% certain that someday Damacus will be completely destroyed.
What we don’t know is if it will be on August 3rd 2006, in another day as a consequence of this present war or in another day in a future conflict involving Syria.
In my understanding, too many “pieces of the puzzle” fit each other and I don’t believe it happens by chance / coincidence.
As a measure of precaution I advise all those who believe it’s better to be safe than sorry and are in Damascus to leave that city immediately and those who are planning to go there to postpone their plans until August 5th.
To those in Israel I advise them to be very, very careful on August 2nd and to those in Tel Aviv my advice is to leave the city on August 1st or earlier.
I fear for all those who are leaving Lebanon and are heading to Damascus.
I would be very happy to write a post here on Century 21st on August 5th saying that mankind was spared what could have been the beginning of World War III.
But since until then the destruction of Damascus may happen, I had to write this article and publish this very serious warning.
If you truly believe that this tragedy may occur on the dates the Bible codes suggest I advise you to warn other people about this.
If you don’t, remember this article if or when you see Israel suffering a massive and unbelievable attack.
May the love, peace, grace, justice and salvation of Jesus Christ be with you and never forget that God is directing this war.
"I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things."
Isaiah 45, 7
http://sec21.blogspot.com/2006/07/leave-damascus-now-avoid-tel-aviv.html
peter pecker austin -
You're still pushing your lies and propaganda for your terrorists buddies that they can't be defeated and that Israel's fight for survival breed's more jihad monkeys.
Thats just more to send to allah.
Israel has the ability and it sure looks more a reality every day that Israel will be pushed by the religion of hate ,Islam to use their nukes to end the mad moslems final solution plan.
The cure for hezbollah,hamas, Islamic terrorists -A mushroom cloud and poof they're gone ,and thats what it's going to take.Of course Israel will be blamed for defeating the latest group attempting a final solution ,but it's all part of the cosmic battle between good and evil.
Whilst most Lebanese fail to understand why we didn’t stop after a couple of days when it would have been most beneficial for them, we don’t understand why you expect us to pay, in blood, for your impotence and indeed complicity. What a wonderful “national dialogue” you had going there – we look down on the Shia but we're scared of the HA so we’ll let them kill the Israelis/Jews if they leave us alone and do it on a scale that won’t impact us, we’ll even spout their absurd claims to justify their actions. And you want us to to cover it for you?
And what do we hear from Seniorita and his cabinet (and from the bloggers) “we didn’t do it, we didn’t know those naughty HA were going to do anything, we had no reason to suspect they may be so silly” and “HA look what you have done, you’ve disturbed our happy playground and we even have to pay for your mistake, so inconsiderate of you” and “why is Israel attacking us so brutally, for 2 of their soldiers (or even “dogs” depending on the speaker)”.
Not one word of sympathy or regret for the loss of life, no offer to act to free and return the hostages as a matter of urgency and priciple, even repeating the ransom demands and justifying them (yes the elected government).
No statement of moral repulsion regarding those actions. None of you has even raised the legal issues relating to a cross-border action or indicated any intention to bring those responsible to trial. Not even a complaint that they crossed the border without having their passports stamped (surely that is illegal).
No word about HA firing rockets at civilian centers prior to the border incursion.
What exactly don’t you understand? That we are not building on you as a strategic ally to rid the region of HA? That your opinions or sympathies or interests are not of major significance? Wake up and smell the coffee.
Sadly, truly sadly, there is a price to pay and, from what I see in your posts, the real price for you will actually be extracted by HA once we leave. But then you will probably blame us for that too.
Sorry, no more sympathy, take responsibility for your own future (unless you can get the French to carry you for a bit).
The plight of the Lebanese is regretable, but it will continue until they realize that it is self-inflicted. As long as they host rocket launchers in thier neighborhoods, they become legitimate military targets. The people in these areas becom terrorist collaborators - even if it is unwittingly. Ah, you say, it's not us, it's Hezbollah. The question then becomes, is Lebanon a soverign state or not? If it is, then it is responsible for its behavior, including the behavior of its criminal element. The bottom line is either clean up you act and permit no further aggression from within yuour boarders or stop whining; you're getting what you asked for. Hezbollah is your dog. Don't expect Israel to accept the consequences of your being unable or unwilling to curb it!
Irv. Farber
Philadelphia, PA
USA
Lol. Calm down Mr. Marcel. You are afraid and becoming offensive becuase everything i said about the jews is extremely true. Realy, My name is marcel too,. Do you have a problem with that. its funny that you accuse me of being one of the islamic puppets. BUT I AM NOT . i'm a normal neutral person. I wanted to investigate more about the jews and their savvy use of media.
Why are you so afraid that my name is marcel. And moreover, you blame me to be member of islamic organizations. Lol. I dont think these islamic organizations are smart enough to play with the fox. Dont worry buddy! im a marcel too..but with different marcelization!
Lebanon would not like to Let israel control over everything. The privilege goes to Hezbollah. BECASUE Of HA, the israel left south lebanon
BECASUE of Hezbollah, The South become better place for every lebanese. ITS a Truth that the puppets of israel cannot die even if they barked till the end of times. Return our innocent fathers sons and mothers in your prisons. for your 2 baby soldiers. play according to the rules of the game please. Otherwise something unpleasant would happen.
Nano
"BECASUE Of HA, the israel left south lebanon"
This is one of the biggest and silliest myths that the Lebanese people believe in.
What they don't seem to realize is that it was precisely because of Hezbollah that Israel couldn't leave south Lebanon years earlier.
Just as it is precisely Hezbollah that has brought the Israelis back again.
Please permit a direct response to Peter R-austin.
I see no reason to rethink my original impression. The Lebanese are responsible for the status of their country. They started a war with Israel and thus far no one has developed a cogent argument to the contrary. They have sewn, now they must reap.
As to your statement concerning qana I have a few thoughts. First you use an interesting rhetorical trick. The use of the this phrase: "all thinking people.." is an attempt to cast people who don't agree with your maudlin sympathies about Qana as non thinking. sorry, I don't buy that.
I have no sense of revulsion concerning Qana. I've seen plenty of the Arab's perfidy to lead me to doubt anything they say. The blogosphere is doing a good job of debunking the entire episode and even if they didn't I still have no problem.
should israel purposely target an apartment building? short answer: if rockets are being launched from it, absolutely. I don't care who is living in it.
does Israel's enemy aim only at military targets? hell no, they send rockets indiscriminately yet I cannot find any expressions of concern on your part that Hezbullah is doing nothing to end hatred in Israel.
Frankly I am not expecting this war to end Arab/muslim hate. I am expecting the war to bomb these people into impotence.
World war two didn't end nazi ism as an ideology. We still see idiots goose stepping. No, what that war did was remove that ideology's ability to consume the civilized world.
You have simply moved the goal posts beyond reach and you seem completely fine with that. Based on your posts here I believe that you simple expect the jews or any other non arab/muslim to just die.
In your model if we respond to deadly provocation we simply manufacture more anger. If we don't respond we simply endure more deadly provocation. That's a recipe for surrender and to that I say no thank you.
I see this as a two step process. First we have to reduce the Arab's ability to make war against us, then we have to work on moving them toward a sensible culture.
You, sir, have the cart before the horse. Right now Israel has no need to seek "root causes" for Arab hatred, they have a need to bring an end to the bombing of their people.
why is that so hard for you to understand?
We In america have been singled out for the same dire threats. In fact the arabs have made several successful assaults on American people.
I don't expect the invasion of A stan or Iraq to instantly change the mindset of these psychotics in the muslim world. I expect these efforts to make it far more difficult for these madmen to kill us.
if you think we should be some how helping the Arabs to hate less I strongly suggest that you hie thee to Teheran for consultations with elite muslim clergy who are fomenting all this sorrow.
it's just amazing to me that so many otherwise intelligent seeming people have so readily bought into the Muslim cultures entire line of BS. Peter R austin clearly demonstrates how blithely the world has accepted a double standard in the ME. On set of standards for the civilized world and no standards at all for the barbarians.
Otherwise something unpleasant would happen.
Got news for you Nano.
Lots of unpleasant things have already happened, thanks to Hezbollah and its cheerleaders.
Or do you not have a television?
If the "rules of the game" are that Hezbollah gets to kill and capture whenever it wants in order to "free" murderous creeps like Samir Kuntar, get used to people no longer wanting to play by the "rules of the game."
Your opening just made me scoff, but the subject deserves a more thoughtful and measured response. Only coming from an already adverse position would one question, When is Israel wrong? More importantly, only coming from a preconceived adverse position would one even posit the question in that way. The issue is not whether Israel can or can't be wrong, but whether neighboring nations and their people can muster enough humanity and intelligence to at least be civil to one another. They don't have to like each other or agree on many things, they just have to agree or accept that each one is entitled to live where they are today and anywhere they can financially afford to be tomorrow. No one gets to go back in time. My ancestors' properties are long gone to someone else who had the power or money or both to take them and hold them--they've probably been sold again and again hundreds of times. We all have to move on. No objective, thinking person can see the barbaric actions and rhetoric of hezbullah and then fault Israel for responding to their attacks with force. If Syria made it a regular practice to rain down hundreds of missiles, indiscriminately on Beirut, would you think it wrong for Lebanon's military to attack such an enemy? Of course it would. Israel is doing no more or less than any nation would do. The real question that must be asked is, When, if not now, can Israel be right? If Lebanon does not want to be a battleground, do not harbor criminal combatants. Before hezbullah and the homicidal jihadis (back in the 1960's, I guess), Israel and Lebanon got on just fine; Lebanon was prosperous, a jewel. Who ruined that? Not Israel, unless you attribute Lebanon's slide into hell to Israel's internationally compelled withdrawal from Lebanon and the consequent accession of Syria and its puppets to power. Lebanon would do far better to be lest concerned with who is "right" or "wrong" but rather who would really be a better, more peaceful and positive neighbor with whom to be allied. Right now it's a bitter pill to swallow, but it is undeniable that Israel is currently in the role of surgeon--cutting the cancer of hezbullah out of Lebanon--a painful, but necessary operation.
Your opening just made me scoff, but the subject deserves a more thoughtful and measured response. Only coming from an already adverse position would one question, When is Israel wrong? More importantly, only coming from a preconceived adverse position would one even posit the question in that way. The issue is not whether Israel can or can't be wrong, but whether neighboring nations and their people can muster enough humanity and intelligence to at least be civil to one another. They don't have to like each other or agree on many things, they just have to agree or accept that each one is entitled to live where they are today and anywhere they can financially afford to be tomorrow. No one gets to go back in time. My ancestors' properties are long gone to someone else who had the power or money or both to take them and hold them--they've probably been sold again and again hundreds of times. We all have to move on. No objective, thinking person can see the barbaric actions and rhetoric of hezbullah and then fault Israel for responding to their attacks with force. If Syria made it a regular practice to rain down hundreds of missiles, indiscriminately on Beirut, would you think it wrong for Lebanon's military to attack such an enemy? Of course it would. Israel is doing no more or less than any nation would do. The real question that must be asked is, When, if not now, can Israel be right? If Lebanon does not want to be a battleground, do not harbor criminal combatants. Before hezbullah and the homicidal jihadis (back in the 1960's, I guess), Israel and Lebanon got on just fine; Lebanon was prosperous, a jewel. Who ruined that? Not Israel, unless you attribute Lebanon's slide into hell to Israel's internationally compelled withdrawal from Lebanon and the consequent accession of Syria and its puppets to power. Lebanon would do far better to be lest concerned with who is "right" or "wrong" but rather who would really be a better, more peaceful and positive neighbor with whom to be allied. Right now it's a bitter pill to swallow, but it is undeniable that Israel is currently in the role of surgeon--cutting the cancer of hezbullah out of Lebanon--a painful, but necessary operation.
Looks like malpractice to me.
Leb Pro:
We thought that you, Israel, were going to leave us alone.
I'm sure Israel hoped to be left alone, too, after it withdrew in 2000.
I understand that Lebanon did not have many good options in terms of disarming Hizballah. But when you have an aggressive, "democratically elected political party," with its own militia that is supposed to be disarmed but is not and is instigating attacks on your Southern border, you might not be left alone for all that long.
It's a sad reality.
I don't agree with everything the Israelis have done - not at all. But I don't agree with ANYTHING that Hizballah has done and I don't expect the Israelis to "play by the rules of the game" when they are being taunted by a Shiite Cleric with a pseudo-death wish who wants glorious martyrdom for all Lebanese Arabs and has 12,000 rockets to try to accomplish that feat.
Skipsailing said: "You, sir, have the cart before the horse. Right now Israel has no need to seek "root causes" for Arab hatred, they have a need to bring an end to the bombing of their people. why is that so hard for you to understand?"
My answer: If there was any empirical basis to cling to this fantasy you hold, I'd be all for it.
I've got no problem understanding the idea. If X, then Y. If we do "x" (bomb Lebanon & HZ, "y" will result (no more rockets into Israel)."
It's a great theory. One that's been tested just a few times in the modern Middle East but hey, maybe this time it'll really turn out different.
See, this whole "Let's bomb 'em" deal is pretty unpredictable and right now you're only thinking about "y." Usually, the formula actually is: "If x, then y, and also z, q & t, where z, q and t are not so good. We don't seem to spend enough time thinking about z, q and t when we decide to do x. Know what I mean?
When our President was writing up the Iraq equation, he didn't spend much time thinking about z, q, t either and it hasn't turned out all that well. Bush thought, If x (no Sadam), then y (liberation & democracy). Yea, boys and girls, it's just common sense, see!
Well, then there was z (insurgent uprising against the occupation -- which Rumsfeld said, "No one could have anticipated." (That's funny isn't it). And there was q (sectarian violence) and my favorite "t" (election of radical fundamentalist parties into the Iraqi government).
Oh well. We had to respond to the problem right? And what were we supposed to do, nothing!
if Israel hoped to be left alone, after it withdrew in 2000.
then why it was necessary to keep Shabha farms
and why keep Lebanese prisoners
to have peace
it does not mater who owns the stupid farms and what these prisonerspe did from 1982 to 2000 during the war
2000 was a new start for both
i think as a powerful nation as Israel they could have made a better and wiser choice
Marcel said: "The cure for Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic terrorists -A mushroom cloud and poof they're gone, and that’s what it's going to take."
Marcel, you espouse a certain Christian perspective, at least as it relates to the end time. I assume that you hold these beliefs deeply and sincerely that this is the beginning of the end battle until Christ returns to the earth.
If that is the case, perhaps it would be wise to release the violence in your heart and not to hope for the mass destruction of the members of our human community. If that is God's plan, he needs no help from you.
I believe -- an it is my belief only as I cannot speak for God -- that we may find a way past the very serious problem of radical groups likes of Hezbollah & Hamas when we are able to contemplate first the limits of military force and second create new ways of understanding and acting.
The task of peace is of no interest to the ideologues, the radicals and the fanatics.
If that is the case, perhaps it would be wise to release the violence in your heart and not to hope for the mass destruction of the members of our human community. If that is God's plan, he needs no help from you.
I believe -- an it is my belief only as I cannot speak for God -- that we may find a way past the very serious problem of radical groups likes of Hezbollah when we are able to comtemplate first the limits of military force and second create new ways of understanding and acting.
This task cannot fall to the ideolgues, the radicals and the fanatics.
Oh please, you have no cogent response, that much is quite clear.
Again, let me restate your position, just to make sure I have it right:
If the target of arab terror responds to deadly provocation the result will be more terror. If the target of arab terror does not respond, the result will be more deadly provocation.
Spare me the smoke screen Peter, it's clear you have no idea what to do in this situation.
As for Iraq, allow me another radical POV: If they get to democracy I'll be a happy man. If they don't get to democracy I'll still be a happy man.
Our position in Iraq is so strategically valuable that it has changed the entire landscape in the region.
syria risks a two front war if they overtly aid hezbullah. Iran will struggle to get their material to lebanon because we sit at the critical cross roads. Net result Hezbullah is about to starve to death. Oh well. We're landing c 47's filled with material at airbases in Israel while the hezbullah boys can't get a pick up truck full of pita bread two feet inside Lebanon.
It would great if the Iraqi's get this done and I have high hopes. but this is a war and we've just taken a very important strategic position. Think in terms of the Straits of Gibraltar or Okinawa.
the missing variable in your idiot's calculus is this: the muslims must decide what they want for themselves.
Lebanon is a microcosm of the entire arab/muslim world. Will they be ruled by evil despots who urge death and destruction? Or will they take arms against that sea of trouble and work toward an agreement with the modern world?
I hear repeatedly that the problem is a small percentage of the muslim population. Apologists such as yourself are quick to point out that of the 1.5 billion muslims only a tiny fraction are the killers.
OK, so when do the other 99% or so drive these people out of power? Left to their own devices it seems clear that the answer is never.
Again, when will you offer a policy, strategy or tactical option for us to critique? When will we be blessed with your thoughts about the concrete steps that the civilized world should take?
You have plenty to say about the choices made by others, but nothing of your own to offer. This is pretty typical of Islamic apologists and appeasers. and that's you peter, an apologist and an appeaser.
You talk of "if x then y" but never seem to apply this to your friends in the muslim terror industry. At what point do the arabs say: "if we launch rockets at Israel we'll get killed?" At what point do they say "If we fly planes into American buildings they'll invade yet another country"?
do all arabs have a death wish peter? Is this why you think we'll never win? does every man woman and child who lives in the ME and worships allah wish to die for thier faith or their leader?
To read you it seems that the arabs don't need to make careful calculations. You have never criticized Nasrallah or the Hamas morons for violating widely accepted standards and thus triggering a war. Did they not do the f(x) calculus Peter? If that is so, then tell us why Iran will not give Nasrallah permission to fire the long range scuds sitting in Lebanon right now. did the mullahs do an "If A then B" and decide against such a course of action Peter?
when will you make a statement deploring Hezbullah's continuing violation of the accepted rules of conduct Peter?
You sound like Neville Chamberlain's grandson Peter. When will you wake up and smell the chai?
I've read the comments here and I have to say that I sincerly doubt that your smarmy airs of superiority are fooling anybody who's reading you. Nobody's buying your CAIR inspired nonsense Peter.
Israel this, Lebanon that, Hizbollah this, Syria backing up that, Palestine this, USA that...
Look people, the fighting in Middle East is NEVER going to end, unless either side (if it really can be put down so simplistically) completely obliterates the other party.
Totally.
As in, nobody left.
You have fought over 100 years (yes, even before Isreal was 'born') even by modern war history standards and even longer than that if one considers the longer running feuds.
Sure, UN/UK/USA have all played into it and played badly.
But the problem is already there, it's not going to go away.
So unless all of war mongering people in Middle East suddenly become enlighted, drop down all weapons and start loving your fellow brothers and sisters regardless of nationality, religion, place of birth, home location and whatnot... its not going to end.
The war will go on.
Children will suffer.
People will die.
And YOU are the only one who can solve it.
No amount of international front, EU, USA or other middle men can even change that.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7828123714384920696
skipsailing. I read your comment. I have trouble believing we live on the same planet. Do you par chance live in the US or Israel? Or perhaps the moon. Why do you not question the Israeli and US role in this. Also have you not read the original blog, or do you just post your random skewed vitroil anywhere that may in fact support the Lebanese people(and I say people, the vast majority of those who have died are civilians), who suffer and die in this war. Perhaps this comment is in fact some sort of joke designed to further stir up the emotions of those reading the blog (as if the mass slaughter of children wasn't enough), for I truly cannot believe anyone outside of a select group of fundamentally blind ideologues would really subscribe to your deranged 'calculus' of the middle east. Perhaps some form of satire no? Aimed at exposing the laughable thinking behind the misadventures of this and previous US and Israeli administrations.
On the off chance that you are serious, and again I truly, truly doubt that you could be given what was said. Then I can only, regretfully, ask that you watch as only Hezbollah emerge from this horrendous episode stronger than when they started. The US, the UK, and obviously Israel will be less secure. The cedar revolution is now dead, and one can only hope that, as a new generation of hezbollah leaders bask in the glow of increased legitimacy, not more than a few hundred thousand actual Lebanese die in the resulting mess their country will be left in when the Israeli's scarper back behind their pretty new fences. Leaving creating extra 'security' by further scorching the broken remains of south Lebanon.
Thanks for that propaganda peice anonymous, as a counter point how bout you now take a good hard look at what they big bad Israeli's are facing and have been since the twenties (long brfore any occupation)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&q
You should take a good long look at this too pete-r, it gets to the very heart of what I was trying to explain to you the other day.
its is always easy to label hb as terrorist, but the matter of a fact is that israel acts as if it is superior than its neihbors, it flies its plane at supersonic speed over lebanon whenever it sees fit, when the pope visited lebanon in 2000, israel for days was seen enetering lebanese air space as a mean of intimidation, when lebanon hosted miss universe, israel again flew its fighter planes over lebanon over lebanon, as a mean of intimadation, israel does not permit the construction of a ski resort on the lebanese side of mount hermon, who are they to decide such things, these kind of action are perceived by lebanese people as provocation by the israeli state, which they are because they are done for no appareant reason
mike malek.
Alright Skipsailing – I can see you’re no appeaser, no apologist for those radical bastards. I know you’ll take it right to ‘em because as you and Ron said earlier, it’s pretty simple really, all a matter of will and power. So your prediction is – and I assume this will happen pretty quickly – is that the supply of material to Hezbollah from Iran through Syria will dry up pretty soon and they’ll starve to death (I guess you mean militarily). Any other outcome you’d like to predict, feel free to add it.
I think the radical groups will be emboldened and more powerful, will launch new attacks from within Israel and ramp up the conflict in the Gaza strip. Attacks with the uS are now more, likely not less and I would not be surprised if one occurs this year. I also think there is a good chance Hamas and Hezbollah will begin to set aside their sectarian fight in Iraq and work together some to intensify the destabilization of Iraq, forcing the significant US forces out of the region within 12 months.
Hmm, who knows right? But as you asked, let’s apply the “If x then y calculation to Hezbollah” because it’s revealing. Before that, however, try to knock off the apologist/appeaser attack. We disagree. Big deal. I do not support Hezbollah, Hamas or the agendas they represent. The fact that I disagree with you how best to respond to the persistent threat of radical thought and action in the Middle East, does not make me either. I happen to believe your response to the problem is shallow and ill-considered. That’s all. So spare me the histrionics
Ok, let’s take a shot at Hezbollah’s “If x, then y.” Taken at its word: Hezbollah’s calculation begins with an objective to foster radical thought and action in the Middle East, empower Islamic theocracies in the region’s governments, and rid the Middle East of Israel and the influence of western ideals (Incidentally, Hezbollah’s attack helped put the Iran nuclear issue on the back burner too). HZ’s objective is best pursued by destabilizing the Middle East further, promoting chaos, strife and war. So my guess is that they came up with something like the following calculation: If we kill and capture Israeli soldiers and fire rockets into Israel (x), then Israel will respond with overwhelming force, destabilize Lebanon, an emerging moderate Arab state (flawed as it may be), and further radicalize the Middle East. In this chaos, we will expand our base and disrupt the America’s goal of democracy through war in Iraq.
The radical groups are not dissuaded from action x because it may bring military repercussions on them. It is precisely the opposite. Hezbollah very deliberately instigated the war here. As a result first of the Iraq invasion and now Israel’s attack on Lebanon – regardless of how justified it may be -- the influence of radical groups and Iran has grown. Ron, it is distressingly true, I know, especially for those who see only one tool to use – and that is military force. It’s a cold world out there and there cones a time when you’re forced to surrender the naive conservative fantasy that you can secure peace and security in the current Middle East by military force.
I will grant you that in Iraq, we have “it has changed the entire landscape in the region.” Well, whoop-de-do. That’s not quite the goal we had in mind. I thought we were trying to change the Middle East for the better – promote democracy, reduce the influence of terror groups, encourage moderation is the Region’s governments. These are things I believe are good. I’m not going to debate this with you about the effectiveness of our tactics to date; the cards are on the table and even Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Nebraska)can see them. The Iraq war failed to produce the benefits we sought and sadly there is no chance that our current posture in the country will get us there. That’s not being defeatist, its being honest and from there we have some chance of getting it right.
If you want to know what other approaches are possible in my view, go the post "Lebanese Refugees" from July 27. I talked about it there.
Bottom line is the altenatives to a "force-first" posture are not obvious but I think recognizing the futility of our current approach (US & Israel) is a good start toward peace and security.
Tanc you live in a fantasy land if you really believe that Hezbullah gives a frosty crank about the death of children.
Save the piety for someone else, I'm too busy remembering that it was an Arab who drove a VBIED into a crowd of children in Baghdad, slaughtering them wholesale.
I also recall that it was an Arab who planned a VBIED attack on the funeral for those kids a few days later.
further I recall that it was an Arab named Samir Kuntar who killed a young girl's father and the dashed the young girl's brains out with his rifle butt.
yes Tanc, the same Samir Kuntar that the Hezbullah have sworn to release from prison via a swap of LIVE israeli soldier for this one guy.
Spare yourself the effort pally. We in America have seen too much of the Arab/muslim madness to believe that the hardcore Hezbullah will respond to anything but death. It's all they know, all they do, all they want.
As a commenter here recently noted, this thing won't be over until the arabs lay down their weapons. We're at the point in our civilization where we're about to offer them a choice. Lay down the weapons or die with them in their hands.
quick tanc, name a successful arab army.
Gosh, you deplore the deaths in Lebanon. Tell me where I can go to read a comment by you deploring the behavior of Hezbullah? Or doesn't CAIR pay you to post those kinds of comments?
Hezbullah is about to be decimated. Your brothers in Syria will watch as Israel tears hezbullah apart. No one in the world will lift a finger to prevent it. hezbullah as a military force is over Tanc. All they will have left is hate. And acting on that hate will get them killed.
Israel wanted a decent neighbor and the lebanese turned their backs. The lebanese army wouldn't deploy to the border, infact they colluded with the Hezbullah, but we're supposed to shed tears because the PR guys in lebanon staged a "mass murder"? Can you say jenin massacre tanc?
Speaking of ideology, when will the arabs stop hating everybody that isn't an arab? When will the muslims find a word to refer to people that don't share their faith other than infidel? When will they stop issuing arrogant meaningless threats in the general direction of a civilization that has passed them by?
got anything in your house that says Made in Syria? Or lebanon? The people you are defending cannot even build the cell phones they use to kill jews. the limits of thier manufacturing capability seems to be AK 47s and chemical weapons.
When will that change tanc? Is the Arab/muslim culture capable of co existing with modern world or will they continue to act like brats demanding that we live the way they want or else?
Do we risk another 9/11 unless we force our women to wear kerchiefs tanc?
Israel did what the world had requested and was rewarded with a barrage of rockets. When do you mourn the dead Israeli children tanc? Or don't you mourn them at all?
there is no excuse for what Hezbullah and Hamas did. Not the worst of the knee jerk liberal sooth sayers in our culture can justify their acts. They crossed an international boundary and killed soldiers of their neighbor's army. they started a war. now you want sympathy for them because thier children are dying while they continue to launch unaimed rockets in the general direction of Israeli cities?
Are you kidding? You're a joke, right?
peter pecker austin wrote;
it would be wise to release the violence in your heart and not to hope for the mass destruction of the members of our human community.
You are dead wrong about Hezbollah .It can be defeated because the god they serve is a fraud ,a fake ,and this is why the Arabs have lost every war they launched against Israel.
Israel's big mistake was in trusting the U.S. for a fake peace and allowing themselves to be handcuffed by this phony ally.
It's not what is in my heart that should concern you or those who make war on Israel ,but the violence that comes from God Himself. His patience has run out for planet earth and it's inhabitant's.The Landlord returns and the party is over ,especially for the devils own Party of Satan.
Ahole lotta words and not one idea about what civilization should do, only what you believe we should not do.
You still paint a picture that says, either the arabs kill you or the arabs kill you.
Its a war and we have an enemy and that enemy will take actions it deems necessary.
in the present case you believe Iran seems to have sacrificed Hezbullah to gain a few days grace at the UN. whoop de do (to quote you). Do you really think we'll just let Iran sneak by? We're not the French.
But if Iran is willing to give up Hezbullah I don't see any reason not to take it.
As for Arab radicalization, what in the world would possibly be different? They already call us pigs and dogs and infidels. They already hate everybody who isn't them and a specific them at that.
No sir, the threat of a radicalized ME is just bluster. A few more rent a riots, we've all seen the ANSWER play book, we know how that works.
A few more staged tragedies, we all saw Jenin, we know how that works.
More bizarre threats couched in bizarre language hurled in the general direction of a civilization that has simply passed them by.
Nope, I don't buy that as a credible threat.
so where are your comments deploring Hamas and Hezbullah? Are they here? did I miss them?
The point of military force is not to root out hatred, it is to render it impotent. The arabs themselves have to come to terms with the fact that the western world has had enough.
Enough bombay bombings, enough honor killings, enough anger and hatred. If they cannot go along and get along then they will die. Either we will wind up killing them or they will become extinct.
I don't see the use of military force as the final solution, I see it as a means to an end. that end is capitulation of the terrorists.
Let's use WW2 as an example. Our primary goal was to defeat the military might of our enemies. Then and only then could we work on resolving the issues that lead to the rise of this pernicious ideology. ditto the cold war.
It seems to me that you expect the civilized world to simply tolerate the deadly actions of these psychotic madmen while we search around for some chimerical "solution".
No thanks. Step one, render them incapable of killing us. Step two, work with them in an effort to come to grips with the modern era.
Look at Iraq to see what lies ahead. These poor people are so mired in their backward thinking that they are engaged in a wholesale slaughter of each other. No jews, no infidels, just fellow muslims. This is madness and this madness will easily consume us if we don't act.
all they seem to understand is blind obedience and violence. That's simply not a sound basis for existence in this world. No sir. We need to stop excusing their murderous ways and confront them for the threat they are.
If israel disappeared tommorrow they would still be a blood thirsty band of thieves and murderers. Why do you think the marine corps hymn makes mention of the shores of tripoli? This is who these people are. It who they have been since the beginnings of their faith!
so to repeat: Step one, render them incapable of harming us. Step two help them find a better way of life.
peace of mind writes:
"then why it was necessary to keep Shabha farms
and why keep Lebanese prisoners
to have peace."
Israel was not required to give up the Sheba farms as part of the withdrawal plan. It is part of the negotiation package with Syria.
If the Lebanese wanted to change that situation, the proper channel is through the U.N., not Hizballah "military action."
As for the prisoners, they are killers , no?
If Hizballah wants to get them through military action, then Lebanon pays the price.
If Hizballah (or Lebanon) wants them back, then they should negotiate and have something to offer, other than recently captured Israeli soldiers.
If not, then you have this conflict where Hizballah gets to "courageously defend" Lebanon and fill the Arab world with "pride" and "honor."
Congratulations.
Does the Lebanese army ever plan on helping out a little? I know they're much weaker and they'll lose but can you really just sit down and watch your city and people burn?
no Lebanese army is for drills and show only
they dont shoot back they got blanks only
cous they will kill each other(suni shiaa and christian and others)
i was there in 1980
I'm not sure about "Hezbollah doesn't kill Lebanese"
http://yishaym.wordpress.com/2006/07/31/hezbollah-succeeds-in-killing-lebanese/
I actualy trust the Lebanese intelligence, once Israel gets the hell out of there, Lebanese will eventualy get back to putting Hezbollah where it should be. Pity that it will take them a bit longer now, with all this mess to clean up.
And yes, Israelis, at least 90% of them, really want peace. They also know what needs to be done to get that peace, and by large are willing to pay the price. They ellected Ulmert to mobilze the 'disengagment plan', which most people see as the path to a Palestinian state.
But other than that, you're right.
Israel is confused, and fooled by its generals to think there's a millitary solution to Hezbollah's threat.
Until you people clean up your own houses, get used to the neighbors cleaning it out for you. Tough in the meantime.
If I, as a Jew, am furious with Israel's war of terror against the civilian populatin of Lebanon it is not hard to imagine the fury against Israel that is raging in every person in the world who has seen Israel's carnage against an essentially unarmed people. Lebanon has no advanced missiles, no anti-aircraft defenses to blow the American supplied Israeli war planes out of the sky, no tanks, no advanced weaponry. Just as the US is so good at attacking nations which can barely, if at all, defend themselves so Israel attacks a nation that can do little more than send off badly aimed Katusyas that have hardly any of the power of the smallest Israeli missiles.
Israel is ensuring that the hatred against her will last for years, if not forever, unless she makes some drastic changes in her approach to the region and decides to be a good neighbor rather than an occupier.
To the Chomsky "truthseeker" above, if it is truth you seek, please seek it before posting utter nonsense. These Katuysha's may be "badly aimed" but that makes them no less deadly. It is not the fault of Israel that they built bomb shelters for their citizens while Hizbollah built bomb shelters, well, for Hizbollah. Only. That is b/c Hizbollah lives to see the death of their own people. This makes for good PR.
Then you speak of Lebanon as "essentially unarmed people." Dear sir, have you been watching the news the last 3 weeks? Hezbollah has 15,000 rockets including the Fajr missile and scuds! Is that what you consider unarmed?
If Israel is "ensuring that the hatred will last for years" then I'm sure that is of no consequence for her. Jews/Israel has been hated since time immorial. They can sit down and allow their civillians and cities (Holcaust 2)to be shelled or they can defend themselves.
And lastly you use the common rhetoric of referring to Israel as an "occupier." As an acclaimed journalist pointed out this week - Israel withdrew from Gaza and Lebanon only to be attacked but the most quiet place in the region is the West Bank. Need I say more?
-From an Israel supporting non-Jew :)
Israel just wants to be left alone.
What is the point of peace with a country that cannot control its own people? A country needs to be accountable for the actions of its citizens before treaties mean anything.
Peace, no peace, war: none of this makes any difference in what Hezbollah can and will do.
Go back to the drawing board.
A fair few comments here can be more or less summed up as follows, "YOU HAD SIX YEARS TO GET TO GRIPS WITH THE STINKING RAG HEAD TERRORISTS, NOW YOU'LL GET WHAT'S COMING TO YOU!"
OK, OK, I think we've got what you are trying to say, no need to post it over and over again 20 times.
Now that we know, can you go somewhere else please so that a reasonably civil discussion about what's going on can continue?
That's the minority thankfully, but LP, I think a lot of people don't really understand why Hezb. has been allowed to operate for six years. On the surface that's a reasonable enough point to make.
Unfortunately I suspect it's one of those situations where the answer is more complicated than the question and as you've acquired a lot of new readers (me included), I'm wondering whether a bluffers guide of what's been going on in Lebanon over the past few years might be useful?
Dirk, hesbollah has been operating a helluva lot longer than 6 years. The 6 years you're referring to are the last 6 in which they've been left pretty much alone to build up the strike force used today to attack Israel
Skipsailing: The solution begins with understanding the forces of Islamic radicalism/extremism and constructing and pursuing a strategy, lead by the West and in cooperation with moderate Arab states, that will promote the forces of moderation in the region and around the world. This strategy will require a long-term commitment and must integrate economic and political elements in addition to diplomacy and negotiation.
To succeed, the use of force would become a secondary tactic used very judiciously. To be clear, it is not required that we in the West forgo all military responses or that we simply "appease" terrorists. To get this idea, you have to be willing to slow down, think a little deeper, and find the ability to see that past initiatives in this arena have partly worked and must be built upon. Most importantly, you will need to acknowledge the limits of military force as the solution to extremism. To the extent that force is our leading or predominant response, we play into the hands of the extremeists and undermine chances for our success.
You might take a look at Tony Blair’s remarks in L.A. yesterday (posted all over the net). He is basically describing much of what I am suggesting.
If you care to, read through my posts in Lebonese Refugees last week.
Anyway, take a look at Blair's speech and let me know what you think.
Dirk, hesbollah has been operating a helluva lot longer than 6 years. The 6 years you're referring to are the last 6 in which they've been left pretty much alone to build up the strike force used today to attack Israel
Indeed, I meant the last six when their raison d'etre (the Israeli presence) pretty much disappeared
have you read MEMRI's transcript of the adonis inerview? It provides some interesting insight into what we face in dealing with the muslim psychosis.
YOu seem to think that those of us who recognize the need for the use of force are simply not as smart as you peter. you asked me not to call you an apologist, I'll ask you to can the condescension.
OK?
I read Adonis's interview as suggested. It appears to me Adonis recognizes the futility of radical extremism (see his comments on Hamas) and also recognizes the value of democratic ideals as a positive force in human affairs. This may not be accurate, as I have only read this one interview.
If indeed Adonis is speaking from what we would agree is a moderate perspective, the challenge it seems to me is to find work with those like Adonins, groups, leaders and governments in the region who also support moderation as oppossed to radicalism and extremism.
As I said yesterday, the difficulty of the current emphasis on military strategies is that it places radicals on center stage. Blair speaks about this problem very well. Whatever we in the west do, the Arab community must play the central role in moving radical-extremist groups to the margin of Arab society. While I understand many in lebabon and around the region find appeal in Hezbollah's stand against Israel, this temptation must be resisted, even in the face of the mistakes Israel has made and death of innocent Lebanese.
Finally, I cannot agree more with Blair that the Israeli-Palestinian prpblem mus be resolved fairly and as fully as possible. It is the linchpin for peace.
Let's just call a cease fire in the
whole mideast. The more everyone tinkers the worse it gets. This whole
game doesn't benefit anybody. Who has
the balls to put that on the table?
"Hezbollah experienced the amount of support it has after the Qana massacre"
- Massacre? So, they get to launch rockets and kill innocent people and you don't care. Yet, when Israel fights back, they are the bad people.
"In fact, Hezbollah didn't kill that many Israelis before this conflict started"
- So, it's fair if both sides kill the same amount? Wow, you are clueless. Look at the history of wars. It is usually lopsided you dope.
"If Israel gets to destroy Lebanon, Lebanon should get to do the same to Israel."
- Why? Israel didn't start any of this. They are trying to protect their citizens. What would happen if Canada starting launching missiles into Idaho? Would we try to 'negotiate'? No, we would expect the Canadian Govt. to do something or we would do it. There is no difference here. Stop protecting the crazy ass muslims. Or, go over and join them dope boy.
"Everyone else hates you. I can't. I want to, but I can't. I want to understand you. I really, really do. I don't want to hate you. I've met far too many good Israelis online."
You are pretty gay, huh?
Anon,
You don't seem to know online Israeli women, then. They're pretty hot.
Thanks for stopping by.
Let's let the idiots fight their own wars!!! Things will balance out without us sticking our NOSES in everything:-)
It's just going to happen anyways.
it really doesn't matter. one reason or another arabs will be killing someone.
the area is a cesspool of hate. wrong tribe, bang. wrong religion,bang. wrong kind of islam , bang. wrong boyfriend or girlfriend , bang. wrong cartoon, bang.
wrong century , bang.
until they outgrow the tribes, the sects, etc. death is all they have to offer to each other and the rest of the world.
this maybe the current crisis but once it's over there will be a new one
You ask " Does Israel want peace?"
The answer is no. If they wanted peace would they be bombing your civil infrastructure? Would they be expanding settlements in the occupied territories? Would they be smashing Gaza to the point it looks like-- well, south Beirut?
No. What they want is submission from their neighbors and serfdom for the Palestinians. And although I'm not a huge fan of Hizballah, I fervently hope they slaughter the invader.
And while this war brings me no joy, the change of direction of the Arab "leaders" brought on by public opinion may signal the end of the pathetic edifice that is the Arab system. Indeed, there will be a New Middle East. Just not one that Bush and Olmert would want.
i've been thinking about this conflict for a while now and i just cant seem to understand why people dont or cant support israel. imagine you live in israel and you are hated by people from almost every neighboring country. why? because you're a jew? or because you were given a piece of uninhabited land after a huge number of your people were killed during the holocaust? So now, because you are hated, you are constantly fighting wars that you're not supposed to win, and winning, you have to know that you might be attacked from any side and any time, you live in fear for your life and ur family's lives that some idiot strapped with a bomb will walk into a busy town and blow himself up along with many of your fellow israelis. So maybe israel is wrong in attacking a country and killing civilians when their war should be focused on hezbollah and not an entire country. but there comes a time when a man has been punched in the face over and over and over, hes gonna punch back and hes gonna punch back hard. Support Israel because they do want peace and they want to be left alone
i find that hezballa is a cancer in lebanon and that israel was the therapy but it failed and now cancer is spreading.i mean i am lebanese and i hate hezballa i find that they are nothing more than militants who can fight.when u look closely at the war u will clearly see that in the end hezballa's infrastructure and it's HQ where destroyed, israel lost a few buildings that didnt mean a thing...& they lost a few tanks that also dont mean a thing to them they'll just replace them
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How come there is no protest or international outcries when Hezbollah launched rockets into Israeli back yard? Hezbollah instigated the conflict and Israeli have the right to defend itself!! It's a well know fact Hezbollah used infrastructures where women and children are yo lunch attacks.
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