Friday, August 04, 2006

Lebanon's False Unity, but Christian-Shia bond real

Lebanese politicians claim that Lebanon is united. They refuse to discuss the specifics of the war until a ceasefire is called. This is similar to the Israeli epigram, "once the bombs fall, the debate stops."

This is entirely false if one looks at what is happening on the ground. Hezbollah is supporting the majority of refugees from the south. Druze leader Walid Jumblatt is making a big deal about taking Shia families into Druze regions, but the refugees are forced to rent, and their aid supplies come from Hezbollah, not Druze.

In Beirut, even the New York Times contends that the Sunni population in Saniyah refuses to even look at the Shia refugees living across the street from them in the Saniyah public park, although the Sunni will claim to be united when asked.

Leftist groups coordinated through Zico House are aiding the refugees in Beirut, but their forces are cannot compare with those of the traditional Lebanese political parties, like Hezbollah.

However, Michel Aoun's Tayyar Wataniya al-Hur, the Free Patriotic Movement (FPM), is taking in Shia refugees, welcoming them into their homes, supplying them with aid, and assisting refugees who've sought refuge in Beirut's public schools.

The FPM and Hezbollah signed a paper of understanding with each other that seems to have incredibly reduced sectarian tensions. By and large, the Christian population is angry at Hezbollah, horrified at the destruction of Lebanon, and uninterested in waging war against Israel, but they are carefully playing their cards in an effort to rise to the top of the sectarian divide in Lebanon.

The current conflict rests atop a sea of unresolved issues that pre-date even the Lebanese civil war. Racism, sectarian animosity, feelings of oppression and neglect run deep in Lebanon. Christian support for Shia refugees is smoothing out some of these differences. The Shia population is in need and Christian supporters of Michel Aoun are coming to their support. Aoun already had support in the Shia community, but he is now widely respected.

Usually, sects are seen as being in alliance if the political leadership come to an agreement. But the people have no place in this exchange. So, if the leaders break apart, the people have never formed any bond. One meeting between Druze leader Walid Jumblatt and Christian former militia leader Samir Geagea is seen as creating an alliance, but the communities still share hatred of each other.

The FPM and Hezbollah, two political parties not based on the traditional feudal structure of Lebanese political support, are bridging the gap and making a marked change in the fabric of the Lebanese political system.

Hezbollah's support comes from its power independent of the state. They have their own military and intelligence apparatus. They have their own social services sector. They have their own financial resources. They do not need the Lebanese government. The Shia community looks to Hezbollah before they look to the Lebanese government.

Contrarily, Michel Aoun wants to control the Lebanese government. Christians went from having complete control of Lebanon from 1920-1970 (until the end of Charles Helou's presidency, but this is a separate argument) to having no governmental power during Syria's tenure. To take power back, ie to have complete control of Lebanon and the Lebanese state, he will need a mechanism through which he can incorporate Hezbollah into the state, thus reducing their influence and placing their independent power into his hands.

However, Aoun is not trying to strengthen the state in the name of Christians. He's trying to change the entire Lebanese political process. It's not the Christians he is trying to empower, but the nation (and, obviously, himself).

The 14 March coalition failed because they tried to maintain the old system of political exchange in which leaders make all of the decisions without responding to the needs of their communities. In this exchange, Hezbollah could easily reign over all others. They had weapons. They had hearts and minds. And Druze and Sunni sectarian political parties had no mechanism to bring in Shia supporters.

If civil war is avoided and if Hezbollah is to be disarmed, it will most likely come about through the person to person bonds being made right now between Christians and Shia.

Hezbollah is a political reality in Lebanon. Even if Israel is able to fully destroy Hezbollah's military capacity, which is doubtful, the Shia population will still support the same people and ideologies that got us into this mess. Iran and Syria will continue to capitalize on this, and their is little any international force could do to stop this. The 14 March coalition will fail again.

The FPM is working to counter this from the base. They are building an alternative to Hezbollah.

84 comments:

Joel said...

If that's what Aoun is actually doing, he's not nearly as clever as I thought -- and hope -- that he is.

But I do think you're onto something crucial: "...Shia population will still support the same people and ideologies that got us into this mess."

Which suggests that appeasement of the Shia is a stunningly stupid thing to try.

The best chance that the Lebanese have is a robust international force that, working with the Lebanese, can dismember Hezbollah, with a carrot (international aid, becoming a decent place to do business, tourism industry to be restored, etc.) in one hand . . .

. . . and an M16 in the other.

I love Lebanon said...

Well said lebanon.profile . I am not a member of FPM but strongly sympathize with the message of unity that FPM has been lately advocating as well as their plan to work towards a secular state. Indeed, you explained it well that the Christians are by far the most disapproving of HA's latest cross-border activities, however they have well projected the ability to overcome their political differences and come to the aid of their fellow Lebanese nationals, which is very honorable. I hope that the Lebanese will learn from this war that internal unity towards the external world is required to build a strong nation and prevent others from meddling in our business at home.

Anonymous said...

amazing..

finally someone made into words what really is happening on the ground...

i salute u lebop...

Anonymous said...

joel
will you & the rest of your little israeli cyber army please go away? We really do get tired of the jewish pen brigade glorifying all that issrael does, including the murder of children.

MalcolmX said...

A post which reflects a thorough and unbiased research..it relects reality. Well done LP!

MalcolmX said...

**reflects reality

vox said...

It is paradoxical that the Shia refugees have received better hospitality in Christian areas than in Druze or SUnni areas. But this about charity not politics, politically the Christians remain anti-HA.

vox said...

'However, Aoun is not trying to strengthen the state in the name of Christians. He's trying to change the entire Lebanese political process. It's not the Christians he is trying to empower, but the nation (and, obviously, himself).'

Bullshit. First of all people helping Shia refugees have no political backthoughts, it's a purely humanitarian thing. Second of all, the Christians hate the Hezbollah more than ever and Aoun is politically dead in the Christian community.

Kifaya said...

LP & anonymous,

amazing..

finally someone made into words what really is happening on the ground...


I know! I know! Finally, I'm cheering LP. Great post.

mikealpha said...

from what I read Israel has pretty much detroyed Hezb'allah's financial, commercial and social institutions, or is trying to. By the logic of this article that will leave the Shia dependent upon non-Hezb'allah institutions. If Hezb'allahs military forces get destroyed as well then they should loose much of their political potency. Especially since they havent been able to defend anything.

Rami said...

New here. "Aoun is politically dead in the Christian community".. He actually may be. But i absolutely dont blame him for that. The media in this country goes from bad to worse every day. Ive seen Aoun being misrepresented and a victim of 'out of context' quotes several times.
I agree with everything this article discusses. Spot on! I have to say it's a relief to see him for once depicted in the way i think he should be depicted, away from the blurrying Aoun representations of LBC and Future TV and others.

Not an Aouni activist but a sincere sympathiser..

Marcel said...

Is it better to let you hold on to hope for the future and the political plan's and new alignments no matter how impossible they are ?
No, sorry but reality beckons !

The Islamic crusade to destroy Israel brings no hope for the future,only ruin,death and incredible destruction.
There might have been some hope if the Lebanese had sent Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah back to Iran in a pine box.

The future's so bright,I need dark sunglasses.

As the Sabbath begins, Tel Aviv residents are now waiting to see if Sheik Nasrallah will fulfill his threat, made in a speech last night, that he would strike Israel’s largest urban center with powerful Iranian made Zelzal missiles if Beirut was hit again by IDF bombs. Speaking on Israel radio and TV outlets today, several Israeli military analysts have pointed out that such a specific threat was probably made with Iranian acquiesce, if not direct command. It is believed that Iranian Revolutionary Guards operating for many years in Lebanon have direct control over the long-range missiles. Israeli officials have warned that any missile attack upon the Tel Aviv coastal zone—which includes Ben Gurion Airport—would provoke a massive response. In fact, one of Israel’s leading newspapers, Ma’ariv, carries a bold front page headline today declaring in Hebrew that a senior IDF commander has warned that Beirut would suffer severely if Tel Aviv is attacked.

Further indicating that we may be on the brink of a much larger regional war, large anti-Israel rallies were held today in many Muslim countries, including Turkey, Shiite-ruled Iran and Shiite-dominated Iraq.

Anonymous said...

Very nice article, i prefer to think sunni also help lebanese.
Much depends your circumstances anyhow. Gaza is thoroughly smacked behind the smokescreen.

Aoun is mostly brave, in lebanons near future, its possible not a united christian druze shia base, with clear eye for the lebanese situation will be the next rule.

It's obviously clear we are impressed, the whole air is the territory of instant death.
Only complete destruction and the water of a river can quench this thirst.

So it's possible, people in the lebanese government circles get indicated, and only the christians will be allowed to represent the us opinions.
Oh wait thats aoun, oh no problem then i suppose.
(i like the sekularist state part tho, we will secularize it and later change it into something halfway ok, why not. Or turn the baath party into "the green" , i wud like that one. We'd have to outright XXX "the green" to attack syria , nice for walks when you are in syria too) onix

Anonymous said...

Hasan Nasrallah's latest video:
http://tinyurl.com/zbs9r

JoseyWales said...

the Shia population will still support the same people and ideologies that got us into this mess.

That is terrible news. It's even worse if Aoun and his people will continue their support, as seems the case.

Which means when the war is over, after all the dead and destruction, it will still be taboo to go after HA.

If there are no strong voices, Shia and other, lambasting Nasrallah very soon after the war is over (big if), Lebanon is done for, for good this time.

Joel said...

Anonymous coward: no, I'm not Israeli, and no, I'm not going to go away.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Hope that when Nisrallah makes his next right turn, you don't break your nose.

Joseywales: yup. Nasrallah is leading Lebanon into hell, and I'm not sure if it will ever come out. He's probably stupid enough to launch on Tel Aviv -- thinking that it's Israel's capital.

If he does, it's going to get ugly.

I hope all decent Lebanese get out of Beirut when the flyers drop. I hope Hezbollards and their supporters stay.

That said, something might still be built on the ashes. Eventually. But Lebanon did turn its future over to a madman.

Just look at the past four weeks. Four weeks ago, the Israelis had been out of Lebanon for about six years, tourism was a solid industry, and Lebanese merchants, artists, and farmers were all doing their thing.

Then Nasrallah, at the bidding of his Iranian masters, dragged his country into a war, and the best thing that many Lebanese are hoping for is a "cease fire" that will have a half-life-to-failure of days.

Joel said...

That said, LP, if you ask me not to comment here on your blog, I'll certainly oblige. I think you're tragically wrong on some things, tragically right on others, but you're not an anonymous coward, and I'd certainly respect that request, whether made openly or privately.

But as to the anonymous coward? I'd step over the likes of him only because I don't like scraping dog feces from my shoe.

LF said...

NASRALLAH DID NOT DRAG LEBANON TO WAR. ITS ALL PART OF A BIG PLAN SET UP BY AMERICA. WETHER NASRALLAH KIDNAPS THE SOLDIERS OR NOT THIS WAR WAS GONNA START ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. JUST LIKE THE IRAQ WAR. NO WMD BUT THE USA AND BRITAIN BULLSHITTED THEIR WAR INTO THE WAR. THE ULTIMATE PLAN FOR LEBANON IS TO FORCE THEM TO MAKE PEACE WITH ISRAEL ON ISRAELS TERMS OFCOURSE, TO GIVE THE PALESTINIANS REFUGEES IN LEBANON LEBANESE NATIONALITIES, AND TO HAVE AN AMERICAN MILITARY BASE IN LEBANON. AND THE WORST PART ABOUT IT IS THAT OUR THIEVING POLITICIANS WILL END UP SELLING THE LAND TO FILL THEIR POCKETS EVEN MORE.

Anonymous said...

first of all, I think we should get one fact straight, Israel has not ended her occupation of Lebanon due to the occupation of the Shebaa farms. I know there's a lot of here-say about who it truly belongs to, but underneath that political quagmire we all know that the land is Lebanese and occupied by Israel. This fuels the HA argument for its right to exist as a resistence. I'm Lebanese. I don't support HA, but I also don't support the dispropportionate use of force on the part of Israel. I say get rid of HA, they're destroying our country, but lets not do it at the cost of hundreds of innocent lives. I think the predicament that most Lebanese find themselves is to whom should we support in this war? I can't support HA because I know they're a bunch of madmen who are threatening our country and who have brought this war machine to our homes. But I also can't support a nation that sees the death of innocent women, children and elderly a 'step forward' in eliminating the northern threat. this war wasn't conjured up by the US or Israel, though they had prepared to fight it. Let's not forget Syria...all Lebanese know that they want significant stake in Lebanon- and i don't want another 30 years of occupation. the thing is, all of us anti-HA, anti-Israeli occupation persons are keeping quiet for now, what else can we do? but when the dust settles, HA's days are numbered and we will have our country free from occupation, free from Syria, free from HA and free from Israel.

Anonymous said...

No one in Israel cares about the Shebaa farm - it is not a sacred place for us and there are no settelements there, its just a very small piece of land, that Israel would gladly get rid of it.
However this is not a Lebanease piece of land - It's Syrian - thats how the hystorical international maps drew it. These poor "farms" would be returned to Syria after they sign a peace trity with Israel.
No one in the world believes that a terrorist organisation would threat milions of people with thousands of rockets for this incignificant piece of land - it's just a pathetic Iranian excuse to hold their melicia inside Lebanon ready for the "day of command"..

Charles Malik said...

Joel,

You're welcome here.

I welcome all comments, as long as they remain germane and polite.

Charles Malik said...

LF,

But what do you think about what I said about Aoun?

You still hate him? Or, would you vote for him this time instead of al Hakim?

Joel said...

Gosh, I hope nobody plans on giving the Pallies Lebanese citizenship' it would be suicidal for Lebanon, at this point, to further adopt such a suicidal culture. In the long run, they're going to have to either melt into the Arab world generally, or resettle in an expanded Transjordan -- but sticking Lebanon with them was a horrible thing that Hussein ibn-Talal did, when he chased them out of Transjordan. (I know: they were trying to overthrow him, so he had a good excuse.)

LF said...

L.P
EL HAKIM WILL ALWAYS HAVE A SPECIAL PLACE IN MY HEART. FOR 11 YEARS WE HOPED AND PRAYED THAT HE WOULD BE SET FREE. NOW HE IS FREE. AND MY SUPPORT FOR HIM HASNT FADED. THE ONLY DIFFERENCE THIS TIME IS THAT IM NOT YOUNG AND STUPID AND IF EL HAKIM IS DOING SOMETHING WRONG I WILL CRITICISE HIM, AND WILL NOT FOLLOW HIS LEADERSHIP BLINDLY. IM THINKING MORE AS A LEBANESE AND NOT AS A MEMBER OF THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY. LEBANON IS VERY VERY SMALL. BUT ITS VERY BEAUTIFUL. I REFER TO IT AS HEAVEN ON EARTH. THERE ARE 18 DIFFERENT RELIGIONS IN LEBANON LIVING IN A TINY SPACE, AND IF YOU WANT TO SURVIVE YOU HAVE TO LEARN TO ACCEPT THE OTHER SIDE AND GIVE AND TAKE. THATS MY NEW POLICY. WHETTHER YOU GO TO CHURCH OR TO A MOSQUE WE ARE LEBANESE BROTHERS. AOUN USED TO MAKE SO MUCH SENCE IN THE PAST, WHEN HE WAS IN EXILE. BUT HE HAS CHANGED ALOT SINCE HIS RETURN. DO I SUPPORT HIM? SOMETIMES HE STILL HAS GOOD THINGS TO SAY. SO ITS KINDA A LOVE HATE RELATIONSHIP. HIS SPEECH YESTERDAY I THOUGHT WAS GOOD. I PERSONALLY THINK HE IS THE PRIME CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT. THERE IS NO ONE BETTER AT THIS MOMENT. BUT I DONT THINK HE WILL BE PRESIDENT. HIS ALLIANCE WITH HIZBALLAH HAS MADE HIM UNPOPULAR WITH THE USA AND THEY WILL MAKE SURE HE WILL NOT GET ELECTED. AND THEY SAY THAT THEY ARE EXPORTING DEMOCRACY TO THE WORLD. AFGHANISTAN THE ELECTIONS WERE STAGED BY THE US. IRAQ SAME SHIT, AND LEBANON TOO SOON. IN THE PAST SYRIA USED TO CHOOSE OUR LEADERS, RIGHT NOW ITS THE USA. THE USA ARE THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF HYPOCRITES ANYWHERE.

HAS ANYBODY EVER WONDERED WHY DID THE USA BUY IN BAABDA THE BIGGEST PIECE OF LAND AVAILABLE? THEY CLAIM ITS TO RELOCATE THEIR EMBASSY. ITS ACTUALLY BIG ENOUGH TO HAVE A SCHOOL, HOUSING, EMBASSY AND A BASE IN IT.
1 YEAR AGO A FRIEND OF MINE, A VERY HIGH RANKING OFFICER IN THE BRITISH ARMY WARNED ME ABOUT THE PRESENT WAR IN LEBANON. HE IS IN CHARGE WITH HIS AMERICAN ALLIES TO TRAIN THE LEBANESE ARMY. WHEN I SAID THAT NO WAY THE LEBANESE WILL ACCEPT TO BE INVADED, AND TO HAVE FOREIGN TROOPS ON THEIR SOIL LIKE IN IRAQ. HE ANSWERED WE ARE FORCING THEM. FOR THE LAST YEAR THE LEBANESE MILITARY HAS BEEN GETTING TRAINING ON AN OFFICER LEVEL BY THE US AND BRITAIN. I HOPE HIZBALLAH KEEPS THEM OUT. THEY ARE TRYING TO WORM THEIR WAY IN.

lf said...

joel,

THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RETURN HOME TO PALESTINE. THEESE PPL ARE STILL WAITING AND DREAMING TO RETURN TO THEIR LAND. THEY WERE BORN AND RAISED IN LEBANON, THEIR DADS WERE BORN IN LEBANON, BUT THEY HAVE NEVER AND WILL NEVER FORGET THEIR IDENTITY. THEY WILL ALWAYS SAY THAT THEY ARE PALESTINIAN AND NOT LEBANESE. THEIR LANDS WERE STOLEN FROM THEM. AND THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO RETURN HOME.

Anonymous said...

A litte off topic, but someone brought up the Palestinians a few posts up. I've always wanted to know why the Lebanese keep the Palestinians in concentration camps in Lebanon. I'd like a serious answer, not rhetoric, preferably from a Lebanese.

Poul said...

>> I say get rid of HA, they're destroying our country, but lets not do it at the cost of hundreds of innocent lives.

wow! what a fresh idea! how come nobody thought about it yet?
how do you propose to go about it, though?

tell you what, sport - you bring up a workable idea of how to do it, i give you 1000 US$ right here. i bet israel will pay you even more - that'd be their wet dream, to get rid of hizballah without all the bad PR of killed children and such...

LF said...

ILL PAY YOU 10 TIMES AS MUCH TO GET RID OF THE FUKING ZIONISTS.

nobody said...

LF said...

ILL PAY YOU 10 TIMES AS MUCH TO GET RID OF THE FUKING ZIONISTS.

Sat Aug 05, 03:18:19 AM PDT

---------------------

You are such a patriot , 'IF' . I am just wondering where nasrallah and hezbollah loaylties really are. Is it syria for whose continuing occupation they were demonstrating in thousands? Or maybe Iran where their spiritual center is? Or maybe its some mythical umma ? who knows... But u d better to take into account - its easier to play a hero on the keyboard during the war than to not end up as a loser and sucker after its over. Todays allies, as i once said, may happen to be tomorrow's ... you know

LF said...

''Todays allies, as i once said, may happen to be tomorrow's ...'' you know


YES THATS VERY TRUE. THE ISRAELIS WERE MY ALLIES DURING THE CIVIL WAR. BUT NOW THEY ARE MY WORST ENEMIES.

nobody said...

LF said...

''Todays allies, as i once said, may happen to be tomorrow's ...'' you know


YES THATS VERY TRUE. THE ISRAELIS WERE MY ALLIES DURING THE CIVIL WAR. BUT NOW THEY ARE MY WORST ENEMIES.

Sat Aug 05, 04:25:28 AM PDT

------------------------

Nobody told you to love israel, IF . As nobody told you to be fraternizing now with these fanatics. Just think rationally about your own interests and you would spare yourself a trouble of extracting a knife from your back for another time. No need to shout about solidarity and unity while its obviosuly an idea not shared by everybody in your country. For some people in lebanon solidarity and unity extends far beyond the lebanese borders including some other countries. You almost lost your country and you indeed regained it back . But your situation is not that good to allow you more silly moves. One more mistake and your country may be gone forever.

Anonymous said...

Anon
( I've always wanted to know why the Lebanese keep the Palestinians in concentration camps in Lebanon)

I think we should keep them in cages.
Would you have them live in close proximity to you ?
The Jordanian's had enough sense to kill most of them during September 17th.
Israel is still way to politically correct with them instead of crushing them.

LF said...

nobody,

LEBANON WILL NEVER GO FOR EVER LIKE YOU SAY. LEBANON IS OLDER THAN THE BIBLE.BEIRUT HAS BEEN DESTROYED AND REBUILT 6 OR 7 TIMES. WE ARE HERE TO STAY AND WHATEVER YOU SAY WILL NOT CHANGE MY MIND ABOUT LOVING MY MUSLIM AND DRUZE BROTHERS. WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE IF WE ARE GOING TO MANAGE TO LIVE TOGETHER. AND I HAVE STARTED WITH ME. THERE ARE PLENTY MORE LIKE ME.

THE PLEASURE I GET FROM WALKING ON THE SEAFRONT AT RAOUSHEH (MUSLIM), TO HAVING FOUL FOR BREAKFAST IN THE OLD MARKET OF TYRE (MUSLIM), TO EATING IN (CHRISTIAN) JBEIL, SHOPPING IN (MUSLIM) VERDUN, SHOPPING AND HANGING OUT IN MY BELOVED (CHRISTIAN) ACHRAFIEH, SITTING IN MY FAVOURITE RESTAURANT LA CREPERIE IN (CHRISTIAN) KASLIK, NIGHTS OUT IN (DRUZE) ALLEY, NIGHTS OUT IN (MUSLIM/CHRISTIAN/INTERNATIONAL) DOWNTOWN,ETC.... MUSLIM CHRISTIAN DRUZE WE ARE ALL LEBANESE. WHY DONT YOU ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THERE ARE PPL LIKE ME UNITED IN THE LOVE OF THEIR COUNTRY AND IS STANDING FIRM AGAINST THE AMERICAN/ZIONIST IDEA OF DEVIDE AND CONQUER.

nobody said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
nobody said...

my lebanese friend asked me to post on his blog about aoun and hezbollah

i am just copy pasting it here for those who may be interested

sorry that its so long

---------------------------------

My guess is that aoun is a strong individual who can not accept playing secondary roles. He wants to be a leader. Splitting with march 14 movement and setting up his own party was the only way for him to become a leader in his own right. This is my guess of course, the lebanese should know better.

But the price that lebanon may be made to pay for Aoun's flirting with nasrallah may happen to be enormous. Israel is an external force in relation to lebanon. It comes and goes. Hezbollah remains and its arms and its very present structure is a much more serious problem for lebanon than israel itself.

While hezbollah is repeatedly called a state within a state, this definition clearly obscures seeing what hezbollah really is - Hezbollah is not just a state within a state. The south of lebanon is their state. The state in the south is them.

I would say that what is regularly overlooked when discussing hezbollah problem is its totalitarian streak. The illusion that just disarming hezbollah would do the trick or that hezbollah can be talked up to do something constructive stems from this miscomprehension about hezbollah true nature.

I think many lebanese dont understand what is hezbollah.

Hezbollah is not a political party.

Hezbollah is not a sectarian ethnic movement.

Hezbollah is ideology.

Its ideology with the most uncunning ability to merge political, social and military into one big monolithic bloque at the practical level. Hezbollah is a system with a potential to become a totalitarian entity.

The lebanese see it as one of their many parties and movements. But its not one of them. Its a thing of a different nature.

it may be true that many other lebanese sects are running social services and practiced having their own militias. But its not enough. You need an ideology to make it into potential for something much worse than ethnic sectarian movement.

You need ideology... not just ideology ... a total ideology ... And Hezbollah got it.

it is when you have a worldview , an ideology , into which you can integrate political social military and other aspects of the society that this totalitarian shit becomes possible.

An ideology without this integrating ability is a political party. Without ideology this integrating ability is a sectarian movement.

But i would be dead if what i see now is not the same movie i spent 20 years of my life living in. Its not fully developed yet. Its just starting. But i can smell it - this is it.

its just a question of time. Of how many people would grow up in their schools. For how many people their social services would be their father and mother.

Totalitarianism is an ideology which permeats social fabric and hezbollah is it.

its just starting. It can transform itself it easily into something less dangerous. If for example this wave of fundamentalism would exhaust itself, hezbollah may lose its teeth.

But under current conditions it can quickly become something noone would recognize in the end. Its worse than iran. Iran is rotten from within but hezbollah is apparently not corrupt. Their ideological drive is still fresh. They are fresh as if they started just yesterday and its not a good sign.

Its still not that bad. But it may become very bad.

It depends greatly on the situation in the world and the arab/muslim world.

But whatever the case there is a potential here for the situation in which aoun would enter history books as a local lebanese version of chamberlain.

nobody said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
nobody said...

i would say that there is already a momentum developing inside this system called hezbollah that would make it explode in the face of the lebanese very soon. The ideology of hezbollah coupled with their deep involvement in education on the territories under its control is already laying foundations for next generations of young shiites who would be breathing hezbollah as their life-force.

The momentum has been already created and its my intuition that the whole system would be progressively radicalizing itself in the coming years. Hezbollah got a human face in nasrallah who is joking and talking like one of the people but people who may rise to prominence inside hezbollah later or eventually replace nasrallah may happen to be much worse.

Joel said...

IF, try to at least simulate being a little less nutsy. The US choosing Lebanese leaders? Come ON; even the feckless State Department couldn't have chosen such a bumbling bunch of self-destructive fools.

lisoosh said...

L.P.

Just curious. What is the Shia response to this help from the Christian community? Will it change the way they think? Will they see it as a weakness? Will it make them want to actively partner with the Christians and allow them control?

LF said...

JOEL,

THE USA PUT KARZAI IN POWER IN AFGHANISTAN. AND WE ALL KNOW WHERE KARZAI USED TO WORK, IN G.W.BUSH'S OIL COMPANY IN THE STATES. AND WHAT A GREAT DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADER KARZAI HAS BEEN. THE USA DID THE SAME IN IRAQI WITH THEIR SO CALLED DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED LEADERS.
HISTORICALLY THE USA EVEN HAD A SAY IN LEBANESE POLITICS. THEY HAVE ALWAYS MEDDLED IN OUR BUSINESS. ITS ABOUT TIME WE THE PPL SAY NO. AND IF IT MEANS EVERY LAST DROP OF OUR BLOOD WILL HAVE TO BE SHED FOR LEBANON THEN SO BE IT. I WOULD DIE PROUD DEFENDING THE SOVEREIGNTY OF EVERY LAST GRAIN OF SAND IN MY COUNTRY. EVERY LAST METER OF THE 10452 KM2.

SoCalJustice said...

LF,

"AND IF IT MEANS EVERY LAST DROP OF OUR BLOOD WILL HAVE TO BE SHED FOR LEBANON THEN SO BE IT."

How about this, instead.

Go to school, get a job, disarm your capslock button, and try to be a productive member of your society - not necessarily in that order.

The only people that profit from this brand Jew (er, I mean Zionist) hatred are those who will be happy to add your dead body to the growing pile in the name of glorious martyrdom for Allah, which you seem more than happy to oblige.

But, you know, to each his/her own. Unless HA gets control. Then, like in other similarly situated regions, it's only to each HIS own, as the HERS unfortunately will have zero say.

But you seem ready to go. What were you going to polish off? Your AK and your rocket launcher?

I forget.

Lebanon Profile:

Granted the Shia will always be prone to supporting HA, not solely for religious reasons, but because they've been able to do what the Lebanese government has not - provide all the important peace time services.

I get that.

[But - and I apologize in advance if this sounds biased - have you seen the pictures (or maybe you've gone to one) of their Ashoura celebrations? To me - and again, I apologize if this sounds overtly American/Western - that shows a level of extremism (being that it's a celebration) that isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And I know - I haven't been there personally so I only see wire photos of children who's dads have cut their heads open and those same dads gleefully flailing away on their bodies with metal impelements and cat o' nine tails, etc....

But it seems to me there's a large percentage of people caught up in a religious fervor that's very difficult to understand.

And yes, I would say the same thing about certain orthodox Jews about their level of religious ferver - but to date I haven't seen them in such a celebratory orgy of blood.]

Back to the topic -s o the only way to do damage control under these circumstances (meaning, guaranteed support for HA from the Shia community, no matter what) seems to be the control of the borders, airports and banks, and preventing Iran and Syria from re-arming and funding HA.

Do you think that's a possibility, long term? Or do you think there will be no political will for that - because, for other reasons, HA will always use Israel as an excuse as to why they need $$ and weapons, pro-Syrian individuals will always use Israel for the same reason - and it will be fresh in many of the people's minds that this is either: a) completely true and a valid justification for keeping HA armed and funded and/or b) because of this perception in the minds of so many people, the Lebanese who feel otherwise will be unable to (or afraid to try to) persuade non-like minded Lebanese that keeping the status quo of a funded and armed HA is bad for Lebanon.

Sorry for the long question and the huge - perhaps, unfair/biased - digression in the middle.

Hope you're safe today and you can get home soon.

Anonymous said...

and the teacher waves his finger.
thou shallt not understand hezbollah... sorry i have to laugh.

Alredi now its clear what was a thought yesterday.

That you can only represent a people in a peace negotiation , if the other is willing to hold his fire and listen.

(what a story about this karzai, thx usefull info. can say that of all that:.. untill there is no more beirutm lebanon nopt anymore existing stuf and such.

Is it an option to think over lebanese souvereignety in other terms then that?

the palistinean cause ' a suicidal race'? and i am an antisemite??
What are we talking to?
People so desinterested must be here for the pay only?
onix

Anonymous said...

socialjustice,
for what it's worth, let me give you my perspective to your question.
i think there is a real possibility toward the EVENTUAL disarming of HA. The problem is that the current method of fight to the death obviously doesn't work. my solution might include the following:
1) recognize the HA as a strictly political movement is probably here to stay. while we ought to disasemble its armed group, we'll never disassemble its politics.
2) Don't give HA militia a reason to exist. give back the shebaa farms (fairly insignificant, but they use it as justification). and (as much as some may see this as giving in to terror) have a prisoner swap. and obviously, israel pulls out to be replaced by intl. force.
3) when all is said and done and israel ends its offensive (as we all know it will) those who are against the HA armed resistence will speak up. radical islamists are not the only ones willing to die for their beliefs. point in case, Hariri and Gibron Tuani both died for a free lebanon and countless others have been targeted by syria, but here we are nearly totally free of syrian influence, though granted there's a lot more to be done (HA for one still exists).
finally, it's important to note that politicians are stepping up and voicing concern over armed HA. don't forget that most of the prominent members of our gov. were once part of militias themselve, but they've moved on. there's still hope that HA will do the same if, as you say
>>Lebanese who feel otherwise will be unable to (or afraid to try to) persuade non-like minded Lebanese that keeping the status quo of a funded and armed HA is bad for Lebanon.>>
I think there is a real possiblity, given recent history, that HA will be forced politically and socially within Lebanon to give up it's armed resistence. They may say they're fighting for ALL of us, but most beg to differ.

Marcel said...

U.N.- to the rescue
That the French had a part in this
is evidence enough of it's sure and utter failure.

UNITED NATIONS - The United States and France agreed Saturday on a draft United Nations Security Council resolution that calls for an end to the fighting between Israel and Hezbollah, but would allow Israel to defend itself if attacked, officials said


The great white hope of planet earth has called for a ceasefire.
They can't deliver peace so an impossible temporary cessation of hostilities is all they can hope to achieve.
Fake peace is all they can deliver !
Christian's know that the Prince of peace Messiah Jesus only can bring true and lasting peace to this earth .

This united plan of the nation's accomplishes only one thing ,it forces Israel not to defeat their Iran and Syrian sponsered enemy,by rushing Israel into a frenzied and erratic limited window of operations.
Interesting how the Sudanese are not rushed on their Dafur genocide ,not the U.S. on it's Iraq bloodbath civil war three and one half years ongoing.
It's only Israel which is hamstrung and rushed when it comes to the new Nazi's in nightshirts.
Ever wonder how God see this ?

Israeli Tourism Minister Isaac Herzog said time was running out for Israel's military campaign."We have the coming days for lots of military moves. But we have to realize the timetable is getting shorter," he said.

This allows a critically ill Islamofascist patient time to recover in a secure intensive care setting.
Satan is happy.

They permit the Jews to defend themselves ,ooh,aahh,how nice of them,you'd think they were God with this ability to permit.
I thought they already had that God given right ?
The nation's sure have come a long way since they stood by as six million Jews were murdered in the gas chambers and ovens of Hezbollah's predecessors ,the Nazi's.
But have they really ?
Upon examining the French and U.S. agreement ,Hezbollah is still permitted to carry on it's Nazi tendancies.
The failed UNIFIL which stood by on the Lebanese border during Hezbollah attacks on Israel is still in business to fail again.
Not to worry though ,President Bush is happy with this, his latest worthless piece of paper .

Joel said...

IF, you're babbling again. Let's review. You argued that the US picked the Lebanese leadership (huh?); I called you on that; to which you respond, with your capslock on, that the US supports the Karzai administration . . .

For a supposed Lebanese, you sure seem confused between Lebanon and Afghanistan. And they're even spelled so very differently . . .

Joel said...

As the the "ceasefire", it's silly to think of this as anything but a win for Israel. Israel is allowed, under the draft, to defend itself if attacked; how many minutes after this supposedly goes into effect do you think that will be?

I think the French just got themselves outmaneuvered. Again.

LF said...

JOEL ITS A FACT THAT THE US HAS ALLWAYS MEDDLED IN LEBANESE POLITICS EVEN DOWN TO PICKING OUR PRESIDENT. DURING THE CIVIL WAR AND BEFORE.

LF said...

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14337.htm TO ALL ISRAEL SUPPORTING MOTHER FUKERS, AND TO ALL LEBANON LOVING LEBANESE WATCH THIS VIDEO.

Joel said...

If, shouting the same nonsense over and over again doesn't make it a "FACT." If the US had picked Lebanese leaders, though, they could hardly have not been better than that sorry bunch of Hezbollah-enablers that the Lebanese did.

Meanwhile, the UN "ceasefire" looks to amount to little more than a delay in the strike to the Litani, and not much of one.

Could Lebanon possibly be more poorly represented there?

ankhfkhonsu said...

IFF, old boy, don't you know that keying in all caps is not only bad net etiquette, it's fucking annoying ( not FUKING). It also underscores your apparent hysteria.

If you must keep banging on with this drivel, at least put it through a spell check, so if anyone really, really wants to try to understand you, they might have a fighting chance.

In the interim, why don't you just sit back, read a few more threads and see what rational people do, et voila, you can do the same!

LF said...

ankhfukutoo,


i i know how to spell fuck you fuck. i wasnt sure if there was a program on this site that WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO CURSE. OBVIOUSLY THERE ISNT. SO FUCK YOU, YOU MOTHER FUCKING PIECE OF LOW LIFE TURD. SCREW YOU AND ALL OF ISRAEL AND ALL ZIONIST SUPPORTING FUCKHEAD.

Anonymous said...

The scary thing about If, he's the smart, successful one in his family.

ankhfkhonsu said...

Now we all now what the "F" in If stands for.

"i i know how to spell fuck you fuck"

Only one "i" though, when you stop stuttering, of course. It should also be captialized at the beginning of the sentence.

I knew you could do it, but you must try harder; only one-half of your erudite rant was not in caps.

Perhaps it was too much to expect from you but with your obvious limitations, I suppose that half a loaf is better than none, at this point.

It really does get better. With a bit of practice, patience and a teensy, weensy bit more observation, you just might successfully put two coherent thoughts together, eventually.

Get some rest. It's obviously way past your bed time.

Jonru said...

The scary part is IF claims to be a Christian; guess he hasn't gotten to the New Testament yet.

IF hope you enjoy your "Heaven on Earth" since I see little hope of you ever reaching the other one with your racists and vile world view.

I'll be praying for you though.

Yohay Elam said...

Interesting insight.
Each time I'm here, I learn more about Lebanon.
Thanks.

LF said...

http://www.lebanese-forces.org/news/viewarticle.php?id=2669

Anonymous said...

Marcel,
I don't know what you're problem is. you criticize the US and the UN for halting Israeli aggression in Lebanon, but you forget that they are responsible for Israel's very existence. The US has prolonged this war for Israel as well as funds most of its military while the UN created modern day Israel. I wish everyone would stop whining and get over themselve. While the UN resolution might seem ineffective, it becomes so at the expense of BOTH parties inablility grow up and fix the problem. It would serve you well to criticize both parties and be thankful that in the very least the world actually cares about the existence of Israel while ignoring the plight of a lot of innocent Lebanese and Palistinians. Everyone shares the fault for this current conflict, including Israel and HZ, as well as the Palestinian authority and Lebanese govs inablity to create peaceful solidarity within their own countries. if anyone should feel sorry for anybody, sympathy should be directed toward innocent Lebanese and Palestinians who don't support extremism but are labled as extremists and ignored by the world. so, rather than complaining about progress, rejoice in the fact that for the first time in weeks there's some good news.
-J

Anonymous said...

a good analogy to think about.
Peter R-Austin said...
Suppose you and I hired a contractor to build a bridge across a gorge. After six months, we check on progress and find the guy brought in a dynamite crew and is blasting away. No other tools are on site but we know a little blasting is needed so we say continue on. One year later same thing: more blasting, no other tools. After awhile, we might say to the guy, "Dynamite is a useful part of the process but really it's time to bring in the other tools necessary to complete the bridge." If he responded, "Well, I have no other tools so I'm going to keep blasting," I'd fire him.

it's a good point...if both sides can only offer more war to solve the problem, nothing will change. i would be interested to hear what you guys think are 'good tools' to bring to the table to end the conflict.

Anonymous said...

Your blog sucks

ankhfkhonsu said...

Actually this is the best of the Lebanese blogs that I have come across, and in fact one of the best political ones, generally.

L-P has a most intelligent, rational perspective. Despite the odd predictable idiotic ranter bumbling in, the rationality of the moderator's commentaries and what it inspires, creates what a blog is supposed to do. Just go to some of the big sites, like the Guardian and see the kind of bullshit that goes down.

People pimping their agendas suck but real attempts at understanding and dialogue are what's going to help us all ultimately.

Keep up the great work.

Omar (Druze) said...

Leb Profile -

Yours is one of the few blogs I like to visit.

But the Druze are not forcing the Shia to rent. In Niha today, LBC reported that families from this and surrounding Druze villages (near Mukhtara, Jumblatt's residence) had opened their doors, in the words of an elder refugee, "wholeheartedly", asking nothing in return.

Get your facts straight next time. I come from a Druze village and my neighbors took in two families in their apartment building. For free.

It is a shame that you the Aoun-Hezbollah alliance is being promoted at the expense of the good Druze semaritans of Lebanon.

desmond said...

LP,

While I believe that it is only human to shelter refugees and politics should play no part in it, do you think that there is a possibility that the bringing together of Christians and Shia could be an opportunity for hotheads in both camps to air wartime grievances and create yet more trouble?

Charles Malik said...

Omar,

I understand your grief, but everything I hear states the exact opposite.

A close, close family relation in Aley says that they have intentionally chosen not to take in Shia from the south. Instead, they're taking in Druze who evacuated.

On top of that are the many Shia who own homes in the Chouf. Many of them (and I'm speaking about dozens of families) claim not to be treated well.

Remember, Chemlan is filled with Shia summer houses.

Also remember, Jumblatt specifically stated in his interview with Michael Young in the WSJ last weekend that he was showing a basic sense of support for Shia refugees to gain some good will from Hezbollah.

I don't doubt that Druze around Mukhtara are supporting Shia refugees.

Sadly, everything else I've heard from Shia and Druze indicates the opposite of what you state. Not that this downgrades anything that your family, relatives, or friends are doing to support the refugees.

I'm also not judging them and saying that it is imperative for them to do so. It's their choice to take in and aid people who support a rival faction at this critical moment.

Charles Malik said...

Desmond,

Good to see you back online. I've now gone over to your website and seen that you're updating it.

Problems could arise, but I'd assume they'd be few and far between.

The Christians are making an effort to reach out, and the Shia are in no position to offend their hosts.

I'm sure the Christians willing t accept Shia into their homes aren't prone to provoke war-time memory

Wild Rice said...

A little off topic but related:

It is my understanding that Hezbollah is the one party that is calling for "one person, one vote" in Lebanon. Could somebody from Lebanon tell me if this is true or not?

Thanks.

Observer from Afar said...

lf

TO HAVING FOUL FOR BREAKFAST IN THE OLD MARKET OF TYRE

at last we get to the root of the problem, you have been eating too much FOUL.

Try fowl, much better, tastier and perhaps less venom in your system.

AbdulKarim said...

LP,

This is your most out of depth analysis till now. I'm dismayed.

Anonymous said...

Observer from Afar,

Foul/Fool/Fuul is a regional dish you moron.

LF said...

abdulkarim,

THE LEBANESE FLAG YOU ARE USING IS WRONG. THE CEDAR TREE SHOULD BE FULLY GREEN INCLUDING ITS TRUNK. AND IT SHOULD BE TOUCHING THE RED BANDS AT THE TOP AND BOTTOM. THE WHITE BAND SHOULD EQUAL BOTH RED BANDS COMBINED. AND IF YOU FOLD THE FLAG DIAGONALLY THE CEDAR SHOULD OCCUPY ONE THIRD OF THE FLAG. I JUST HATE IT WHEN PPL USE THE WRONG FLAG. IMAGINE AMERICANS PUTTING 49 STARS IN THEIR FLAG. OR USING RED STARS FOR EXAMPLE. THEY WOULDNT ACCEPT IT SO WHY SHOULD WE.

LF said...

*i meant to say if you fold it vertically the tree should occupy one third.

LF said...

The Lebanese Flag consists of three horizontal bands, red, white, and red, with a green cedar in the center, i.e. the white band that amounts to the size of both red bands put together. The tip and root of the green Cedar both stretch towards the edge of the red areas. The red bands symbolize the pure blood, shed in the aim of liberation. The white band symbolizes peace. As for the green cedar, it symbolizes immortality. The Lebanese flag was raised in Bashamoun on the 21st of November 1943 at 11:20 pm. It is believed that this same flag is now kept in the National Museum, although it may have been transported to the Governmental Palace in Bteddine.



http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/lb.html#des

Anonymous said...

FYI,

Ministers in the Israeli government are saying today that if the negotiations for cease-fire would not resolve soon, it is time to START attacking Lebanon’s infrastructure, and not just Hezbollah targets – This means destroying Lebanon (water facilities, power plants, major roads etc).
There is absolutely no way Israel would agree to a cease-fire without guarantees that this doesn’t happened again – i.e. no more attacks on Israel from Lebanon soil.
I personally think that its a terrible mistake to go after Lebanon, as a country, and hope that it would not come to that, but people in Israel are fed up with the hundreds of missiles falling every day here, killing families.
I hope for Lebanon and Israel's sake that this war would be over soon, because if it continues it's going to escalate to some real nasty episode.

A concerned Israeli

Anonymous said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5253160.stm

Joel said...

LP, glad to see that you were posting in the comments as of yesterday; I was worrying that something had happened to you.

Onward . . . I don't expect you to agree, at this point, with the necessity of the Lebanese destroying Hezbollah at this point, but would you consider sharing some thoughts about what it would take to make that happen, assuming a consensus among the sane Lebanese that it was both necessary and urgent?

Wild Rice said...

"Ministers in the Israeli government are saying today...":

Then, if these threats are carried out, the issue of whether these ministers are war criminals or not will have been effectively resolved. I believe that there is a court room in the Nuremberg Palace of Justice available for used at this time.

"A concerned Israeli": If you are an example of a trainee Israeli diplomat then I think the quality of future Israeli foreign policy is not going to be very good. But the only foreign policy that Israel has ever had is might makes right.

concerned Israeli said...

1. I am not a trainee Israeli diplomat, whatever the hell that means.
2. I think it is a big mistake to go against Lebanease, instead of letting them understand they have to take their country in their own hands with diplomacy.
3. Attacking back a country which attacks you (even if it has good excuses of being an impotent country) is not a war crime - it's war. Its ugly but that’s what happens in wars.
4. Britain bombed German Drezden and flattened it, after the blitz on London - was Churchill a war criminal?
5. The suggestion made by Israeli officials was not never to kill Lebanese civilians (as the allies did in ww2).
6. I understand you are worried and I can see why you are angry, beieve me - I am worried too.

Bad Vilbel said...

I'm usually a fan of Lebanon.Profile's analysis. But I'm afraid I disagree with the premise of this one.

While on the surface, it is true that the FPM's declared platform is non-sectarian, it remains, in my mind a predominantly "christian" movement that only represents an alternative to the old-school feudal christian politicos (Kataeb, LF, etc.).

I agree with the commenter who notes that the FPM homes opening to the Shia refugees should be seen as a strictly charitable gesture, not a political one.

Aoun has shown over the past year that he will do anything to get power for himself, no matter the cost. That, in my opinion, is NEVER a good thing for Lebanon. He may have SEEMED to endorse what we all wanted for Lebanon, making him look different than the old-school politicans we've had over the years, but he's shown over the past year that he's no different. Switching allegiances when politically convenient is the oldest trick in the Lebanese political book and reeks of lack of principles (joining the pro-syrian camp for electoral gain for example).

The FPM is in part responsible for the situation we're in now, having empowered Hezbollah to a large degree by providing HA an alliance, right when HA was being totally isolated, following the Syrian withdrawal. So to me, any claims that the FPM is actually aiming to strengthen the Lebanese government (albeit one controlled by Aoun) is hogwash.

Anonymous said...

LP, it isn't fair to say that about the druze. My relatives and their friends and neighbors had fled from Nabatiyyeh and Tibnine to the some greatest Joumblat supporting areas (Baakline, Ammatour, Bater...) And they are all, if you will, Amal and HA supporters to the bone. They said they were actually surprised by how well they were treated by their political woes.

Please don't use rare examples to overgeneralize. I have seen and heard from many people and different media (including Al-Manar and Nour Station!!) that people who left the south are being treated with a lot of respect and warmth in the Chouf mountains (especially the PSP supporting towns) so your contradictions on Joumblat are not just (I am only talking about this issue, if you want to contradict him and his party with respect to politics or what not I will stand with you but with this thing...it's not fair...)

Moe Bazzi

John said...

"bad vilbel said:

The FPM is in part responsible for the situation we're in now, having empowered Hezbollah to a large degree by providing HA an alliance, right when HA was being totally isolated, following the Syrian withdrawal. So to me, any claims that the FPM is actually aiming to strengthen the Lebanese government (albeit one controlled by Aoun) is hogwash."

Sorry bv, but you're way off. The MOU that FPM signed with Hizballah, only 6 months ago, is the only written document that clearly indicates under what conditions HA's arms could be laid down (The return of the Shebaa farms and the release of the Lebanese prisoners from Israel) and thus provides an excellent exit strategy for Hizballah without an internal Lebanese conflict. This document also softened tensions between the 2 extremes in Lebanese politics, and prevented any possible conflicts, especially under circumstances as today. The "bayan wizare" (ministerial declaration), issued more than a year ago and based on which the cabinet was formed and was granted the parliamentary votes, gave the right to HA to resistance, one that was not limited by any mentioned boundaries and without any requirement of notifying government. This was done in the aftermath of the quadripartite alliance between the 14th of March parties and Hizballah to guarantee Hariri's group a parliamentary majority. The only reason the "Cedar revolution" momentum was broken, which could have at the time contained Hizballah under the government's umbrella, was that bloody quadripartite alliance which legitimized and empowered Hizballah's arms again.

I'll let you ponder on this since you seem convinced that FPM covered for Hizballah and is therefore partially responsible for the current situation: would today's govt have been able to contain hizballah's weapons had FPM always taken a neutral stance, as it did earlier on after the Syrian withdrawal, and prevented this from happening? The fact of the matter is that this govt is weak and incapable of achieving anything. Blaming FPM is wrong. FPM never held power, never allied with Hizballah and never used Hizballah to pressure any other party to yield.

Bad Vilbel said...

John,

I used the word "partly". :)
I think the current situation was in the end inevitable. I think you're right when you point out the ministerial platform and the quadripartite alliance as being factors too.

I do think the FPM-HA alliance exacerbated the issue by giving HA a way out in the political scene. Say what you will about the legitimacy the ministerial declaration gave to HA as "resistance". I think March 14 did it under the gun. That government knew it didn't have a chance to be confirmed without Aoun and Hezbollah (or did you forget how HA brought the whole process of forming the government to a standstill!).

I stand by my comments :)

Wild Rice said...

"I am not a trainee Israeli diplomat, whatever the hell that means.": See Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers.

"Attacking back a country which attacks you (even if it has good excuses of being an impotent country) is not a war crime - it's war. Its ugly but that¿s what happens in wars.": The "Nuremberg Principles" and the Geneva Conventions say otherwise. I do not know whether Israel is a signatory to the ICJ (probably not) but most other countries are.

"Britain bombed German Drezden and flattened it, after the blitz on London - was Churchill a war criminal?": That would depend upon whether the Dresden bombing was order by him. But there is no doubt that Harris was. And, you should remember, Gen. Le May admitted that he would have been tried for war crimes if we had lost WWII.

"The suggestion made by Israeli officials was not never to kill Lebanese civilians...": Destruction of the infrastructure has the direct effect of killing civilians.

"...I am worried too.": You should be. If we did not support Israel with our tax dollars then it would make its policy of Zionist aggression impossible.

Israel needs to be vary careful. The number of people who are prepared to support Israel's invasion of Lebanon in support of its annexation of the Golan is dropping every day.

John said...

Thanks for the reply BV. I still disagree that FPM can even be party blamed for the current upset. I will re-iterare what I said previously, following the assassination of R Hariri in Feb 2005 there was an immense amount of support, both internally and from the international community to start a new chapter in Lebanon and head forth towards long-term stability. One of the pre-requisites was containing and controlling Hizballah. The golden opportunity was there to grab and harvest the benefits of that momentum to subdue Hizballah to integrate. That possibility was shattered when some (such as Mr. Junblat) shattered the 14th of March alliance and split ways with FPM towards the quadripartite alliance. You said that March 14th included the right of HA to resistance under the gun. I disagree, I think that was part of a package deal that HA will vote for the 14th of March and not FPM in return for the inclusion of HA's right to resist and to guarantee a few spots in cabinet, therefore the right to some of that executive power.
BV, the MOU could have been grounds for a possible resorption of HA's weapons had it been adopted at least partly by 14th of March and pushed to the UN, as is happening now with the 7-point proposal. I cannot exclude the possibility that HA was bluffing and merely using FPM to extend its popular support. However, I think there was considerable trust between the HA and FPM leaderships; General Aoun truly believed that HA would be willing to fold their weapons if the Shebaa farms and the political prisoners issues were resolved.

Scorekeeper said...

LP -

Don't get it isn't Aoun basically making a deal with the devil for his own power?
Isn't this what the Christian leader did with Syria after (or some feel before?) Sabrah and Chatillah?
So it's just dirty politics not really merging Lebanon.... because Hezbollah will still be armed, powerful and independent with its own suppliers.
It's only going to keep repeating until all Lebanese get rid of Syrian and Iranian agents... and with the divides and Hezbollah power you'll only end up with a reshaped renamed same thing.....

Mike

libanais said...

you made it sound like if Aoun reached the said agreement with HA by being on the same level of Nasralah.
it looks more like Nasralah was laughing at Aoun, and was and still treating him like a kid, promising him the presidency and guarenting him the shiites votes in the future, but Aoun is dreaming, because even if he gets to baabda on the back of Nasralah he will be forever a slave for him, much worse than Lahoud now.

finally do you really beleive that the shiite are going to start to have respect for the christians because of Aoun? far fetched!..
wait until the two disagree on something (that if Aoun still have the balls to disagree with Nasralah)then see how much respect Aoun will keep aoung the shiite.